Backpackers Beware

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Most "sport" hunting is not very sporting. Tree stands for species that do not look up for natural predetors, long range firearm use, hunting from vehicles, "shinning", canned hunts, runing down game with dogs to tree them, on and on.

I am a hunter, I take great pride in making sure the animal has at least a 50% chance of escape and survival. I am ashamed at the shortcuts and needless cheating by those who are incapable of really hunting.

Bears like this are too valuable to waste. I'm not saying this one was wasted, I don't have enough information to make any such statement. But Jeff has a hunters heart and I wouldn't think he posted an example of poor hunting.

BTW, a .30"30 is plenty for any bear that is not attacking. Hundreds of thousands of bears have been killed with this cartridge. Shot placement is the key, as always.

I'm in complete agreement on every point. To me, hunting is "fair chase", or it is not hunting at all. Down on the ground with the intended prey, on my own pair of hind legs, getting close enough to count whiskers.

I have hunted bears and cats behind dogs. I have hunted from a tree stand. I derived no satisfaction from either. Either is the province of someone who "must" fill a tag, not to feed themselves and their family, but to feed their egos. Bragging rights at the bar. The long range game snipers fill this bill as well.

There is a great deal that has gone wrong with modern hunting; virtually all of it driven by man's ego and competitiveness. Guys have to out-do their buddies. How they accomplish that, in the realm of sport hunting, has devolved into a shameful technology race in one respect, and a compromising of the ethics of fair chase in another.

There is something very right, however, about being in the quite woods, or out on the prairie, or on a ridge top, actually hunting. Life, and our place in the world, will never be more clear than it is when we are really hunting, and doing it right. Playing the game fairly.

And yes, a .30-30 is all one would need to go after an animal like this, provided one is a hunter. The largest bear ever taken was killed by a native Alaskan with a .30-30 that was far older than he was. The most popular caliber in Alaska today? The lowly .223. Inuits kill polar bears and seals with them with monotonous ease. They are hunters. That pipsqueak little .223, or the old .30-30, are a damn sight better than what their forefathers used in the same pursuit.

[Mr.Puff]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

The sad thing is that beautiful beast was probably having a great life minding it's own business until those two guys came along with some sort of inadequacy complex.

It's manbearpig!

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by CRH911S

No doubt stated by an idiot with absolutely no knowledge of bears. Perhaps next time the stupid jogger, or as in the case in Anchorage last summer a stupid mountain biker, might want to consider someplace other than a salmon producing stream in the late evening sun.

Yes, the vast majority of man/bear problems are caused by the "man" half of the equation. People do stupid things all the time. Like the old Honda ad in the motorcycle magazines said, "stupid hurts". Nowhere is this more true than around large predators.

Originally Posted by CRH911S

A bear that size is near the end of his life cycle and a threat to no one. Is a frontal of the skull available?

I will be interested to hear how he scores. I'm thinking close to 28".

Anyway, it is an unfortunate fact regarding large predators that as they go past their prime, they are forced to look for ever easier prey. A guy this size needs a lot of calories just to stand there and breathe every day. His usual sources get harder and harder to catch as he gains size and gets on in years. He is looking for any source of protein all of the time, just to keep his immense bulk up and running. We are the slowest, easiest to catch source of protein walking through his domain. Once they get past their fear of us (through the desperation only hunger can evoke), and learn most of us cannot fight back, the jig is up.

[m21sniper]

Most "sport" hunting is not very sporting. Tree stands for species that do not look up for natural predators, long range firearm use, hunting from vehicles, "shinning", canned hunts, runing down game with dogs to tree them, on and on.

I agree none of this is real hunting, but it's the only way rich wall street bankers are ever going to get a "trophy."

I would never do any of that with the exception of tree stands. Animals don't need to see you to know you're there. Their sense of smell and hearing is many times our own. Besides, maybe after 10,000 years of being hunted from tree stands evolution will cause them to start looking up, thereby strengthening the survival quotient of the species.

People seem to forget we ARE a part of nature and the food chain.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by CRH911S

No doubt stated by an idiot with absolutely no knowledge of bears. Perhaps next time the stupid jogger, or as in the case in Anchorage last summer a stupid mountain biker, might want to consider someplace other than a salmon producing stream in the late evening sun.
A bear that size is near the end of his life cycle and a threat to no one. Is a frontal of the skull available?

I don't think it always matters where you are. Danimal posted linked cases as extreme as a bear taking an infant off the front porch of her home and killing her. (page 3).

A large wild animal is a huge threat to anyone that it feels like killing. Armed or no. Danimal even posted a case where an armed hiker fired 2 rounds with a rifle scoring at least one hit, and was still eaten.

When a bear or cat or any other big wild animal wants you dead, you better be armed and a damn fine shot with a cool head, or you're most likely totally fked.

As far as that "stupid biker", that was an American minding his own damn business and enjoying the countryside and parks that his tax dollars paid for. This is the United States of America(ns), not the United States of Bears. He should have been more alert, but this was a perfectly innocent man. If it had been another human that had killed him in the same circumstances, we would rightfully call him a monster.
I hope that bear was found and put down like the murderer that it was.

Besides, how much did Grizzly man's knowledge of bears help him?

What made the biker truly stupid was that he was "near a salmon stream in the late evening sun" in bear country......unarmed. That's just plain stupid.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

virtually all of it driven by man's ego and competitiveness.

What isn't Jeff? Isn't the central focus of this board about racing and performance machines made to stoke man's ego and competitive spirit?

Aint that kind of what drives our entire species to excel? Isn't it, you know, what defines us?

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The most popular caliber in Alaska today? The lowly .223. Inuits kill polar bears and seals with them with monotonous ease. They are hunters. That pipsqueak little .223, or the old .30-30, are a damn sight better than what their forefathers used in the same pursuit.

.223 cal is illegal to even hunt large game with in most states.

How you gonna knock the hunter for using legal calibers with "overkill" potential to add a safety margin in a charge or to prevent excessive suffering by scoring a quick clean kill?

Lame Jeff. Quite lame.

I know a guy that hunts whitetails with a .22LR at night, shoots them right in the eye using a street lamps reflection(he does not self illuminate them ever). is this guy a "real hunter" (the man has killed hundreds of deer), or a filthy poacher?

You tell me.

I knew another fellow that owns a bar in upstate Pa, an old timer (probably dead now), who had a Black bear head over the bar. He shot it something like 11 times with a .30-30 in a charge situation. After examination he said he felt like most of the hits were clean killing shots. This guy was a looooong time hunter. He went out and bought a .300 Weatherby magnum after that IIRC.

I'm sorry but IMO a .30-30 is inadequate for killing large Grizzlies if things don't go according to plan. Considering that Murphy is a hunter, it's wise to plan for the unexpected. I would not even use a .30-06, and i think very, very few "experts" would recommend anything that small either.
Sure old old old time hunters used weaker weapons. Old old old time hunters also got killed and mauled more often too.

Something to consider.

Seriously, IMO, the desire to use too little weapon to prove your hunting skill(to yourself or anyone else) is IMO far more ego based than using too much. And far less humane- and obviously far less safe.

[RPKESQ]

[QUOTE=m21sniper;4557630]You served? In the military? The US military? What was your branch and MOS? [QUOTE]

Why does that sound so strange to you? I served in two different militaries. The US and what was then the Rhodesian Army when there was a Rhodesia. But that was when I was young and full of the same BS that passes for enlightenment in much of the US.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Why does that sound so strange to you? I served in two different militaries. The US and what was then the Rhodesian Army when there was a Rhodesia. But that was when I was young and full of the same BS that passes for enlightenment in much of the US.

It surprises me greatly.

What was your branch and MOS?

And why the need to insult "your" countrymen for absolutely no reason douche bag? It's for things like this that so many people here don't like you. That was completely out of left field and totally uncalled for.

Man you really are an ignorant....

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

It surprises me greatly.

What was your branch and MOS?

And why the need to insult "your" country douchebag?

How have I ever insulted the US?
By not agreeing with your type of mental midgets?
Then I proudly plead guilty.

[m21sniper]

Again, attacks totally out of left field for seemingly no reason whatsoever. And not on any one person, but on seemingly all Americans. You are definitely the biggest douche this forum has ever seen, at the very least since i've been here.

What was your branch and MOS?

[RPKESQ]

What does my branch (Army) or MOS (18B) have to do with anything? Your emotional diatribes about various subjects that you clearly have very little knowledge about or education in are ledgendary on this BBS.

But that is your SOP.

[m21sniper]

Ah, so in addition to 2,083 degrees you are also an expert bear and big game hunter. And a an 18 Delta Green Beret too! Well, how about that....frenchy, a Green Beret.

Well, that figures. I should have known.

Rocket scientist, big game and bear hunter, green beret.

Wow, you really are the coolest man alive, aren't you??? I bet you even devised Sage Robin, didn't you? Did you invent the atomic bomb too? Were you also a Navy SEAL? How about a Naval Aviator? Were you once Captain of the Titanic too?

I asked you your branch and MOS because it's pretty much SOP to do so among vets. It's part of normal conversation.

"I was in the military."
"Oh, really, what branch and MOS?"

For anyone else but a dick like you, it's just normal conversation among vets. Genuine soldiers typically answer that question reflexively without hesitation. But then, there are no others like you, so i guess the things that apply to us normal Americans don't apply to you...

I really don't like you Frenchy. But then, i am far from alone here. I am sure you have made even more new friends with this little bout of oral diarrhea of yours.

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Your emotional diatribes about various subjects that you clearly have very little knowledge about or education in are ledgendary on this BBS.

Must be why i get so many PM's.

Because no one values my opinion or conversation.

There are a few pelicans that don't even post here anymore that still PM me to discuss topics on PPOT/PARF. Probably not after this though....sheesh, once they read what you've written about me here, they will probably never talk to me again!

[mossguy]

RPKESQ and Sniper: Go to your rooms!!!
Best,
Tom

[m21sniper]

No way man, he's a green beret.

He'll cut my ears off and make them into a necklace!

[Dottore]

Sniper, you're a strange guy.

I think you're the new Fastpaste.

Occasionally you are interesting.

But very often it's all dross.

The quantity goes up and the quality goes down.

I'm getting bored with the volume of you're posts—almost all of which are belligerent and full of hubris.

I thought the repo business would be up in these economically difficult times.

You should be out there making some money.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Dottore

I'm getting bored with the volume of you're posts

Why do you read them?

Originally Posted by Dottore

I thought the repo business would be up in these economically difficult times.
You should be out there making some money.

I was, then i got ran over.

Now i'm....ran over.

And to think we had been getting along so well lately. Been months upon months since we've bared claws at one another. Oh well, love and kisses to you too dottore.

Say, you're not a green beret are you?

[HardDrive]

Mr Higgins it is always a pleasure to read your posts about hunting.

A guy who hunts who gets it.

Like everything else in this world, hunting has been invaded by corporate jerks. Hunting for 'the biggest' and the 'the most' completely overshadows what being a hunter is about.

I can only speak for me.

Hunting is about sacrafice. Its about going to where the animals live, not where you have caged them. Its about hunting animals on their own turf. It about not shying away from the elements your prey must endure. Its about understanding your prey as a part of a larger system, and using that to your advantage.

Hunting is also about killing. Not in some 'Hey Dude! Check out this wicked deer I nailed!' way. No killing is a suprisingly quiet affair. The crack of a rifle is loud, but that is a tiny point in a hunt that could take days. Killing should be deliberate, and with purpose.

I guess if someone is willing to gut out a large animal and eat it, well then I'm not one to pass judgement. But it bugs me when people seem to think its some kind of god damn MTV thing.

Killings personal.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by turbocarrera

Humans take the biggest buck, or the giant bear - sometimes for meat but sometimes for something to mount...!

How do you get them to hold still when you mount them? Do you have to be concerned about STDs?

[Fishman7]

O.K. back to the original post, man that was one big bear; backpackers beware!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Both excellent posts.

Growing up hunting rabbits, birds and deer in MN, I appreciate the sentiment here.

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Most "sport" hunting is not very sporting. Tree stands for species that do not look up for natural predetors, long range firearm use, hunting from vehicles, "shinning", canned hunts, runing down game with dogs to tree them, on and on.

I am a hunter, I take great pride in making sure the animal has at least a 50% chance of escape and survival. I am ashamed at the shortcuts and needless cheating by those who are incapable of really hunting.

Bears like this are too valuable to waste. I'm not saying this one was wasted, I don't have enough information to make any such statement. But Jeff has a hunters heart and I wouldn't think he posted an example of poor hunting.

BTW, a .30"30 is plenty for any bear that is not attacking. Hundreds of thousands of bears have been killed with this cartridge. Shot placement is the key, as always.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'm in complete agreement on every point. To me, hunting is "fair chase", or it is not hunting at all. Down on the ground with the intended prey, on my own pair of hind legs, getting close enough to count whiskers.

I have hunted bears and cats behind dogs. I have hunted from a tree stand. I derived no satisfaction from either. Either is the province of someone who "must" fill a tag, not to feed themselves and their family, but to feed their egos. Bragging rights at the bar. The long range game snipers fill this bill as well.

There is a great deal that has gone wrong with modern hunting; virtually all of it driven by man's ego and competitiveness. Guys have to out-do their buddies. How they accomplish that, in the realm of sport hunting, has devolved into a shameful technology race in one respect, and a compromising of the ethics of fair chase in another.

There is something very right, however, about being in the quite woods, or out on the prairie, or on a ridge top, actually hunting. Life, and our place in the world, will never be more clear than it is when we are really hunting, and doing it right. Playing the game fairly.

And yes, a .30-30 is all one would need to go after an animal like this, provided one is a hunter. The largest bear ever taken was killed by a native Alaskan with a .30-30 that was far older than he was. The most popular caliber in Alaska today? The lowly .223. Inuits kill polar bears and seals with them with monotonous ease. They are hunters. That pipsqueak little .223, or the old .30-30, are a damn sight better than what their forefathers used in the same pursuit.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Killing should be deliberate, and with purpose.

and with reverence.