Long overdue build thread
 

So this is a long overdue build thread that I really should have started back in 2003. My project has been delayed over the years by general life hurdles. Kids, house restoration, and a few moves. I took at least 10 years off at one point. I am sure lots of information about what's been done so far is lost. I figured I would at least start to capture some of the things I am currently working on in one place and maybe glean some guidance and knowledge from the comments along the way.

Here is my current project. I am modifying a Holley 75mm Throttle Body typically used on a 5.0 Ford to adapt it to the 3.2 EFI manifold along with adding an. adapter to connect it to my intercooler with a Wiggins clamp.

Here is a video of the before and after of milling the top of the TB.
https://youtu.be/NhCMM5vhj6k

Really interesting machining project.

Tell us more about your project, what year is it come post some pictures, etc.

John

Here are some details:

1977 911 Carrera 3.0 Coupe

At some point it received lots of parts from a 1976 930 that was wrecked. Most notably it has the engine (and sheet metal), a 930/50 3.0 Turbo motor that some have said is one of the first five hundred for that year. I purchased this car back in 1989 and drove it daily until around 1998.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216703.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216725.jpg


It was showing some rust, so I began to address that and basically opened up a can of worms. The car spent a few years in a body shop and was restored between jobs (and stored inside most importantly) at an incredible price by a very reputable local shop. At the time I was in an apartment, so it was nice that it had a safe dry home over this time.

Picture from its final days in the body shop
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216150.jpg

Fast forward till 2002, and she came home with a restored shell, but the time in the shop took its toll on the motor.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216625.jpg


After a few weeks of tinkering to get it running correctly, I finally achieved full boost (took a new set of injectors) and things went bad as she broke twelve head studs during a test run near my house. The studs corroded during its down time, so once they were really stressed, they failed. It was a cascading failure as they started to go. My wife went shopping and when she came home she took this picture of me.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216818.jpg

[QUOT. My wife went shopping and when she came home she took this picture of me.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674216818.jpg[/QUOTE]

If you were able to accomplish all of that alone while your wife was out shopping you'll have no trouble getting things fully sorted. Good luck - lovely color!

Very cool project, I can’t wait to see more.

Bill,

Sorry to hear about the engine issues! Hopefully some top end work is all that is needed to get it running again. How far are you going to tear it down?

I love the color and overall look of the car.

John

John,
I'm pretty far along. Since this thread should have been started 20 years ago, I've got a bit accomplished between life's obstacles lol.

Here are some disassembly pictures for you.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277193.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277232.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277260.jpg

The case, heads, and crank all went to Ollies. This included boat tailing, shuffle pining the case, knife edged the crank, and reconditioning the heads with the addition of twin plugs and port matched to the 3.2 EFI intake. I also replaced the Oil pump with a 964 Turbo pump and stock rods were replaced with Carrillos. I sourced a new 3.2 P&C set to up the displacement so it's now a short stroke 3.2L and a pair of GT2 EVO cams.

Some reassembly pics.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277459.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277506.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277564.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277626.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277667.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1674277709.jpg

Wow, what a sweet engine that will be (or is? seeing how you are catching up now).

I went with Carillo rods too and we found we had to clearance the oil pump a little with my 3.3 block even though Carillo did not specify that.

John

Turbo'd short stroke 3.2, sounds interesting. What appropriate cr do think it will be?

If I recall correctly, it should be 7.5 up from the original 6.5.

Nice build.

A little more progress.

I completed machining the throttle body by adding the wiggins flange (still need to Tig it on) as well as mounting holes that match the intake. This eliminates the need for an adapter plate and gains about 1/4" of clearance and one gasket. I used the O.E. cap screws but had to make custom 6mm washers with a 10mm OD to fit in the counterbore. I used some bronze bearing stock I had for these. I picked up a small mini-lathe and have ben modifying/improving it over the last few weeks. It's a handy tool for the shop for sure! I have already used it to make parts for the car as well as the house lol.

My next challenge is making a custom gasket for the TB. I have a Cricut as well as a laser engraver/cutter in the shop. I still need to determine the best material to make it out of. I tried to contact Fel-Pro but they have not responded. They have a lot of different materials available. Any suggestions are welcome! I won't be able to cut anything with metal in it but want to make sure it will hold under boost pressures. I originally thought of cutting an orange grove into the TB like the Porsche one used, but there is just not enough material left since the 70mm is so much larger than than the O.E. TB.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1678201838.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1678201838.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1678201838.jpg

Q: why the larger throttle body?
Was the Carrera one missing?

Thats a great question. To be honest it was a choice and recommendation from many years ago. As my project stalled over the last 15 years I've picked up where I left off. I imagine I would have gone in a different direction today. At that time, I wanted to chase MAX HP. That is certainly not the goal now. Reliability with modest HP would be fine.

The thought was that the OE TB (I do have it by the way) would not flow enough. I also wanted to incorporate the wiggins clamps that I have. Any advice/recomendation from you would certainly be welcome. I fear the 75mm TB will be a bit touchy just off idle.

Here are some engine specifics:
3.2L Short Stroke
GT2 Evo Cams
7.5CR
Twin K16's (off of a 996)
Brians Headers
MODE Full Bay Intercooler
Motec M600 ECU

OK, I can understand how you got to where you are today.
It’s the touchiness I was concerned with, what with your engine only being 3.2 L displacement.
For whatever it is worth, Tom McElligott’s UBER930 was 3.45 L and a Carrera manifold, made 722 at the wheels on a Dynapack with a stock Carrera throttlebody and linkage.
Much of that throttle linkage is now NLA from Porsche, so hopefully you have it. If not, hopefully you can borrow it and copy it. It has all the lengths and angles correct for good progressive throttle control.
In lieu of all that I would normally suggest running a Bosch DBW throttlebody as it bolts directly to the Carrera manifold, only I don’t believe the M600 can control that?

I do have all the linkage from the OE 3.2 Carrera TB. I think I will take your advice and use it. Modifying the 75mm was a fun exercise and learning experience.

The M600 does have the option for DBW but it requires a license. With it now being obsolete I am unsure if I can even get it now.

Awesome build and subscribed.

It's crazy how the MANY years melt away when life, family, jobs and moving become the priority and the car stuff (no matter how important or valuable) takes a back seat.

Kudos to getting back on track and looking forward to updates.

Yasin

And there it is!


Just as it says in my sig line.. SmileWavy

You make an excellent point here, Bill. And welcome to the forum. The world has changed over the last 25 years and so have we, and our expectations. I recently rebuilt and renewed everything on my engine to OEM spec (except SC cams, 7006, and headers) for the sake of civility, or as you said, “reliability with modest HP”. If I wanted 600HP, I would ship it to Turbokraft for that power WITH the civility and OEM-mannerism he delivers. It’s those in-between home brew builds that can so often suck, where either the CIS is fat all over or the megasquirt EFI never got the dyno hours or know-how it really needed. I just don’t have the patience for that anymore… god bless those guys that do- they keep this board interesting.

Nice project. If using a stock 3.2 throttle body, how do you connect your intercooling piping to it? Is there a well-known and common method?

I have the same question. I am back and forth on using the modified holly TB and the stock 3.2/ The Holly has been modified with a Wiggins fitting so that one is solved, the 3.2 is another story. I know plenty have used them, just unsure of what worked best.

I did a little work mocking up the crank position sensor. I turned some aluminum spacers on the lathe to align it with the flywheel. I still need to grind a relief in the case and one in the transmission.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688356710.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688356794.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688356851.jpg

Here are 2 ways I've attached the intercooler to my Carrera TB in the stock location. One is silicone hose clamped directly to the TB and the 2nd fits over the TB with through bolts holding it down.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688832474.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688832474.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688832474.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688832474.JPG

So that through bolt design looks interesting. I could fabricate a similar adapter with the Wiggins adapter on it. Maybe even make it with the same height dimensions of where the adapter is on my modified Holley TB I am making. That way if I give up on the Holley, I could just swap it out.

I have to give credit to Chris Carroll for that design. The nice thing is, no risk of blowing off unlike the silicone hose method. Although I never had an issue with the silicone hose.

So I'm still playing with the idea of using this Holley TB. I have the complete 3.2 TB and linkage as well. I set up the O.E. TB and Linkage and took a bunch of measurements to see how close the Holley was to the progression of the OE.
Here is what I found:

The O.E. TB has a length of 1.194" from the center of the butterfly shaft to the center of the linkage stud.

The Holley has a length of 1.079" from the center of the butterfly shaft to the center of the linkage stud.

The OE closed throttle angle (to the linkage stud) is 55 deg.
The Holley closed throttle angle is 45 deg to it linkage stud hole.

So, I designed an adapter to make the Holley angle and length identical to the O.E. TB. Below is the 3d sketch of it mounted in the Holley TB arm. I am 3d printing a test piece to see how it clears everything and will further develop it to add a way prevent it from indexing. I can make a steel one on my lathe using a 4 jaw chuck to get the offset I need.




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688846142.png

I’m still trying to get my linkage to feel right so good for you to address it early. Isn’t 3D printing an awesome prototyping tool!

I use it a lot for prototyping. I was able to prove out the design, then having it in my hand and looking at my goal, I have decided to just add some material to the TB by tig welding some steels onto where the linkage needs to be and just drilling a new hole. I found a perfect shoulder bolt on McMaster Car that will allow the use of the O.E. linkage arm. I like this idea the most as it will allow me to swap out to the OE TB is I hate the Holley without changing the linkage.

I posted this on another thread but in case you didn’t see it, I prototyped my current intake before making from aluminum:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688925490.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688925536.jpg

I feel you on the age. I took mine apart in 2013. dropped the body off for paint a year and a half ago.

Hey Ken,

I've been following your thread as well. You are really close to me, I'm in Jupiter.

David,

Just curious, what 3d printer do you use? I purchased an Ender 3 basic and modified it over time. It's still the same build area (though with reduced Z now). I added a better direct drive hot end and updated the main board + added a touchscreen display. I run it all over Octoprint and an Pi. It's been rock solid for about 2 years now. I run one production item every few weeks and slip in my photo stuff in between. It's more than paid for itself (10 times over) with the one part I sell.

I have a QIDI TECHNOLOGY printer. It's a pretty cheaply made Chinese printer but it's worked well for me. I print mainly with 3DXTECH ASA material.

https://www.amazon.com/Intelligent-Industrial-Printing-Precision-10-6x7-9x7-9/dp/B07JCKNQSZ?ref_=ast_sto_dp

Nice I am in the acreage!

Making a little progress. I started to tear the motor back down to check the valve clearance using the clay test. It's half apart at least. This summer heat has been brutal this year so I limit my time in the garage to evenings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694023424.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694023424.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1694023424.jpg

I enjoy this thread. So glad you keep us updated on this interesting build. Just curious what field or industry you work in... I wish I had your talent.

I'm in the Information Technology field (30 years now). It pays the bills and I have been successful at it, but cars are certainly my passion. I also worked in a machine shop in my youth, where I learned the basics of machining and welding. I grew up working on cars with my father so it's in my blood I suppose. I am continuing the tradition with my son on his Subaru WRX.

Great build, enjoying it!

Respect for the 3d printed parts.

I am in Brevard County, been working software development in the space industry almost 40 years now. I would much rather work on my cars. Get a mini split AC system for your garage and you can laugh at the heat. :-)

John

I have been considering a mini split. I am still sorting the garage space out though. I really need to organize.

It is always a challenge to decide whether to work on your car or on cleaning up, selling unneeded parts, organizing your shop, etc.

I usually opt for working on my car. :-)

John