930 Headers: T304 vs 321 Preference

[RarlyL8]

We have produced several sets of 930 headers now and I am evaluating pricing.
The price point that I wish to hold is a couple dollars more than the popular short tube headers currently on the market. My headers offer many advantages that increase cost and justify the sale price.

My question to you as enthusiasts is how much does weight vs materials matter?

We currently use 321 stainless as it has properties that work well in the turbo environment. T304 stainless is the industry standard but does not hold up as well to the heat and stress given the same wall thickness. You can compensate for this difference by increasing the wall thickness in the T304 which also increases weight.

It will be difficult to retain current pricing using light weight thin wall 321. What are your views given the choice of a heavier product (currently 15 pounds) or a more expensive (couple hundred dollars) product?

[stup]

Personally if the longevity where to remain the same i reckon the cheaper option with only a little extra added weight would be my preference...

I would reckon it would still be far lighter than the original set up anyway,, can you confirm its weight versus standard euro system?

[sprbxr]

Brian
Would you sell the headers only from flange to collector?

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

We have produced several sets of 930 headers now and I am evaluating pricing.
The price point that I wish to hold is a couple dollars more than the popular short tube headers currently on the market. My headers offer many advantages that increase cost and justify the sale price.

My question to you as enthusiasts is how much does weight vs materials matter?

We currently use 321 stainless as it has properties that work well in the turbo environment. T304 stainless is the industry standard but does not hold up as well to the heat and stress given the same wall thickness. You can compensate for this difference by increasing the wall thickness in the T304 which also increases weight.

It will be difficult to retain current pricing using light weight thin wall 321. What are your views given the choice of a heavier product (currently 15 pounds) or a more expensive (couple hundred dollars) product?

How much lighter would the 321 be?

I assume offering both is not practical?

[Drane]

Make mine lightweight please. 15 pounds in the extreme back of the car is undesirable track wise. Drane

[jsveb]

I would definitely chose the 321 version. With this kind of craftmanship, why would I go cheap on the materials used. Weight is definitely just making the choice even easier.

I'll hopefully get back to You and Ben in about a year or so ;-)

Regards

Jesper

[RarlyL8]

With this kind of craftmanship, why would I go cheap on the materials used.

That is my thought but I am not the consumer. It's challenging to get a good read on what the client values in our current economical climate.

The weight difference between my system and stock is HUGE. The stock heat exchangers and muffler weigh in at over 100 pounds. My headers and muffler, both on 321, weigh 27 pounds. Dump the stock waste gate for a TiAL and you save over 75 pounds!
The difference in weight between thin wall 321 and thick wall T304 is ~22% so you are not talking a huge penalty in weight. Maybe 4 pounds.

Justin - shoot me an e-mail on what you are wanting to do.

[jonesb930]

Brian,

Personally, I would not consider 304 headers on a turbo. You have built a great reputation with the product using 321 and doing it the right way, why change things now? The current design is proven and worth the additional cost. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill

[87 930]

Hands down...321.

[Slantnose Steve]

Iwould prefer 321, Brian.
_____________________
1989 930S Factory Slant

[RarlyL8]

I'm glad to see support for 321 as it is a more appropriate material for the application. Realize I had to ask this question as ultimately it doesn't matter what I think is best but rather what the clients value. I'd make everything out of inconel and titanium if I could!

[full quack]

Hello Brian,
If my ship ever comes in, so that I can do the fullbay, k27,cams, 3.2 manifold efi, header combo shuffle.
I would really prefer 321 stainless (with heat) headers, just becauce it is the right way to do it.
Mark

[stup]

Now i have re-read the original post it appears thicker wall 304 will only compensate for a problem and not give the same longevity....

So in that case,,defo 321 would be the option to choose!!

[Noah930]

321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.

[pkracer21j]

Originally Posted by Noah930

321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.

awww, why not inconel? industry standard in aircraft...

and $$$$$$$

let me go pick some more money off the trees in the back yard, lol.


btw, I'm waiting on my 304 GHL's to crack. they've been in hard use since 2001.

[WinRice]

Originally Posted by Noah930

321. If you're going to do it, do it right. There are plenty of other so-so products out there.

My thoughts exactly!

[MikeD930]

Originally Posted by Drane

Make mine lightweight please. 15 pounds in the extreme back of the car is undesirable track wise. Drane

Do you have bumperettes on your 930? If so then those weigh 15 lbs at the very rear!

If I'm in the market for the headers I'd be interested in longitivity so 321 would be preferred.

[DonE]

Key question for me is, what is the price?

I too have 304 stainless in my custom headers and have yet to have a problem nearly 7 years later. I haven't weighed them though but I am not interested in a 5 pound difference for street/DE headers.

And as for weight, you state 15 pounds for the heavier headers, but how much lighter are you talking about? 2 pounds? 5 pounds? No one on this list would be able to tell the difference.

Be careful using this to decide your pricing. I want the best stuff at the cheapest material's price. But why not offer both (or multiple) materials and we get to choose based on our own criteria? How long would it take to build an order? A couple weeks? I could live with that knowing they are built to my specs.

[BoxxerSix]

Originally Posted by DonE

Key question for me is, what is the price?

I too have 304 stainless in my custom headers and have yet to have a problem nearly 7 years later. I haven't weighed them though but I am not interested in a 5 pound difference for street/DE headers.

And as for weight, you state 15 pounds for the heavier headers, but how much lighter are you talking about? 2 pounds? 5 pounds? No one on this list would be able to tell the difference.

Be careful using this to decide your pricing. I want the best stuff at the cheapest material's price. But why not offer both (or multiple) materials and we get to choose based on our own criteria? How long would it take to build an order? A couple weeks? I could live with that knowing they are built to my specs.

+1. Offer the option for 321, keep a few 304's in stock ready to ship. If a customer prefers 321, just note a lead time of a couple weeks prior to sale for fab time.

This is what I do for my stuff and it works well. I keep nothing prefabbed in 625, but retain the option and build per request.

[RarlyL8]

The price would skyrocket if I did it that way. Pricing can only be controlled through volume. I have to make a large run which is huge money so no mix and match. My preference is to stay with 321, I need to know that it is also your preference.

There are plenty of 304 systems that have not cracked, but there are lots that have. That number needs to be minimized.

As stated above the 321 headers weigh 15 pounds. T304 would probably weigh ~20 pounds. Not a big difference but weight is only one factor. T304 doesn't have the same properties as 321. Price difference is a couple hundred bucks.

I think I have my answer and the 930 headers will stay 321 as they should. Price may go up a bit but the value remains.