930 Water/ Methanol Injection

[cole930]

GUYS !!!

Don't quite know how to start here. I'm doing this because of the lack of understanding and good information on WMI let alone on a 930. I have always had a serious concern about pushing boost and ignition on a 930 due to lousey fuels and detonation as we all know what detonation can do.

I have no dog in this hunt and am not interested in some pissing match over what works better or who has the biggest dick. I'm installing WMI on the "Old Sled" because after, reaserching the subject, I feel it is the best option, for me, to
prevent detonation. Knowing what I had to do to get information, educate myself, and make a choice to go with MWI I thought this might be benifical to others here.

Quotes that reference some of the benifits of WMI.

Quote: In simple terms, water methanol injection protects your engine and the investment you have in it, by reducing and eliminating engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition, while safely allowing you to run more boost and timing for increased horsepower. How does it do it? Here’s a quick summary below.

Benefits Of Water Methanol Injection:

Lower air charge temperatures by 40-200+ degrees
Increase your fuel’s octane by 10-25+ points
Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

Quote: Injecting a fine mist of water methanol directly into the engines incoming air charge has a substantial cooling effect. As the water methanol injection mixes with the hot incoming air charge, it quickly converts from a liquid state to a gas state (steam). In doing so, it absorbs significant amounts of heat from the air charge. Depending on the build of the motor, whether naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged; intercooled or non-intercooled, decreases in air charge temperatures will vary between 50-200+ degrees with cylinder temperatures dropping as much as 300 degree’s.


Quote: Many of you will be surprised by this. When injected properly, water alone will not only significantly cool down the air charge temperatures, but will also act as a very high-octane booster. Read that again if you need too. Researchers estimate up to a 20-point raise in octane can be achieved by using water injection with 87-93 octane gas. No need for expensive racing fuels or octane boosters. A simple water injection system will significantly cool down your air charge temperatures, while dramatically increasing your fuels octane. The best part is, water is free and racing gas is notoriously expensive.

Quote: Most significantly, initial horsepower increases are due primarily to the significant reductions in air charge temperatures offered by water methanol injection . Along with the initial cooler aircharge temperature, comes a denser air charge. This creates a greater expansion of power within the cylinder, since pressure is directly proportional to temperature. The combustion process also turns the water droplets into a vapor which also helps to create a pressure raise (much in the same way as does a steam engine) and prevents the temperatures in the combustion from rushing to a sharp peak (as it does in a standard engine) and then dropping off. Instead, the combustion heat increases more slowly, reaching a lower peak temperature and descending more gradually. In addition, the longer overall combustion duration creates more pressure than does a standard engine’s cycle. Due to the significantly cooler air charge temperatures, cooler cylinder temperatures and dramatic increase in octane offered by a water methanol injection system; users can now safely run higher amounts of boost with more timing then ever before without it.


I am throwing this out here and if any of you have any interest and wish more information I have saved several articals on the subject and would be glad to pass them on.

I have my WMI and am in the process of installing it. Over the next few pages I will post pictures and information if there is interest.

Cole

[mark houghton]

Count me in (suprised?). I love cutting edge stuff.

Interesting reading. I agree with most of it - intuitively - though I am not an automotive engineer. I can understand how it may slow the burn and thus act the same as a higher octane gas would act (thus the claim that it raises the octane of your gas...kindof mis-stated IMO). And yes, evaporative cooling is just physics and the vapor-water-pressure curve...cooler air is definitely denser, but just because you cool a given quantity of air and make it denser doesn't relate to more air going into the engine. So, it's more the temperature of the air, it's cooling of the combustion charge, in conjunction with the "octane" controled rate of burn that allows higher boost and ignition and ultimately HP increases.

Just my science brain farting....

Keep us posted.

[cole930]

There are several very good WMI manufacturers out there, Snow Performance, Aquamist, Coolmist, Labonte, etc. Aquamist is hands down the best. It is made in England and has a higher level of sophistication than the others, but, the cost reflects this. They cater to the higher end pro market and consequently the price reflects that.

I chose the Snow Performance system based on reviews, quality, cost, safety function module, and customer service.

One of my major concerns was what happens if you have a system failure at 1.2 Bar of boost. Snow has an optional Safeinjection module that protects against such failures. Though it's not cheap, the safety module monitors and shuts the system down if there is a failure. You have 3 monitor led's for pump failure, power failure, pressure and clog failure, and low fluid. If any faults occur boost is then limited to wastegate spring pressure, timing is retarded, and the system is disabled.

This is what the system looks like:





I purschased the larger 2 1/2 Gal tank and the Safeinjection module











Going to install up front:








Making a chassis for the modules and terminal strip for wiring. At the Cole house Medical copay payments are the mother of invention. I knew I'd have a use for this left over roof flashing sometime. Metal fab 101 a bench vice and a ball peen hammer..








Sorry the pictures are so sh---- my photographic skills parallel my metal fab skills

More to come if the interest is here !!!!!


Cole



Cole

[JFairman]

I'm curious what sales pitch gadgets you'll be installing on your 930 after you get this one on and you become bored with it..

[cole930]

Gimp,

Do to the fact I did not publish this, I just quoted it; I didn't have to explain it. Here is their explanation. Try not to fall asleep.

Quote: While that may sound funny detonation and pre-ignition are certainly no laughing matter when it comes to supercharged, turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines. As you probably already know, detonation (aka “knock”) is a serious concern in the world of forced induction engines and can often lead to blown head gaskets, pitting of pistons, scored cylinders or even worse, catastrophic engine failure such as broken connecting rods and pistons if left untreated. With the addition of a supercharger or turbocharger, you must take additional measures to avoid it. Normally, the common solution is higher-octane fuels or some form of intercooler (i.e. air-to-air or air-to-water). But, before we get ahead of ourselves, let’s start from the beginning.

Before we can understand detonation and pre-ignition we must first discuss and understand the normal combustion process. Under ideal conditions, the common internal combustion piston gasoline engine burns it's air/fuel mixture in the cylinder in an orderly and controlled fashion.

Normal combustion is started at the spark plug some 15-40 crankshaft degrees prior to TDC (top dead center) depending on rpm and engine load. The spark plug produces an electrical spark that jumps a small gap from it's center electrode to it's ground electrode. This spark, if the air/fuel mix is within the ideal flammable range for the fuel, initiates combustion. The initial phase forms a small flame kernel approximately the size of the spark plug gap. For the first few milliseconds of the combustion process, this flame kernel is struggling to survive, producing only slightly more heat than is necessary to continue the combustion process. As it grows in size its heat output increases, allowing it to grow even faster. After this early slow burn phase passes, the flame kernel grows much faster, expanding rapidly across the combustion chamber. During this process, the flame kernel transforms from it's original small round flame kernel into complex fingers of burning fuel. These fingers have a much greater surface area than a simple spherical ball of flame would have, thus greatly accelerating the combustion process. This is why ignition advance is necessary as it allows time for the flame front to travel and move throughout the air/fuel mixture and combustion chamber at a rate ideal for the engine at that rpm and load..

During this process, the piston is continuing on it's way to top dead center in which it is further compressing this burning air/fuel mixture and expanding gases. Cylinder pressures rapidly increase as the piston makes it‘s way up and over TDC (top dead center). It's at this point in which it begins to use this power to drive the piston down on what's called the "power stroke". Actual maximum cylinder pressure is achieved a few crankshaft degree's after the piston passes TDC. There by giving the piston a harder push when its speed and mechanical advantage on the crank shaft gives the best recovery of force from the expanding gases.

Detonation occurs when the air/fuel mixture that is ahead of the flame front ignites before the flame front arrives. It is believed the air/fuel mixture ahead of the flame front self ignites due to the pressure and heat of the advancing original flame front. Under these conditions, the combustion becomes uncontrolled and sporadic, producing a violent explosion that creates a “pinging” or “knock “ sound. During this process, cylinder pressures can raise rapidly, beyond the limits of the pistons or rods, leading to engine failure. If your luck only the head gasket will blow out.

Pre-ignition is a different phenomenon from detonation as explained above. It occurs when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder (or even just entering the cylinder) ignites before the spark plug fires. This pre-ignition is caused by an ignition source other than the spark plug. Such alternate ignition sources include, excessive heat and pressure. Spark plugs with a heat range too hot for the conditions. Spark plugs with to high of a heat range will run hot enough to burn off deposits that lead to plug fouling in a worn engine, but the electrode of the plug itself can occasionally heat soak, and begin glowing hot enough to become an uncontrolled ignition source on its own. Another common source is carbon build up in a combustion chamber. Carbon build up can also become heat soaked to the point where it is glowing red hot and ignite the air-fuel mixture before the proper time. Under these circumstances, known as "pre-ignition", the piston will be traveling up towards an on coming wave of exploding gases. This places a tremendous amount of pressure on top of the pistons and on down to the connecting rods and crankshaft. These are the most unfavorable kinds of conditions, which can bend and break connecting rods, score cylinder walls, break piston rings/lands, destroy pistons and worse complete catastrophic engine failure.

So What Does Water Methanol Injection Have To Do With All Of This?
In simple terms, water methanol injection protects your engine and the investment you have in it, by reducing and eliminating engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition, while safely allowing you to run more boost and timing for increased horsepower. How does it do it? Here’s a quick summary below.


Jimmer,

If it helps prevent detonation I will be satisfied. If it doesn't I'm sure there is someone in the classifieds that's as gullable as I was !!!!!

If I get bored with filling it I can just drink more and piss in it !!!!

But I'm going to have to stop soon ------- I'm running out of room.


Cole

[jly535]

Definately interested as I have a non-intercooled 77'. I already have the 2.5 gallon res.

Would I need too adjust fuel mixture if I only wanted too inject water for cooling purposes? I don't plan on messing with timing just want it to be a cooler charge.

[drmatera]

I love, promote, endorse and agree with WMI. But not only am I the president of the WMI fan club, I'm a member too

[cole930]

jly,

I'm going to run wall mart windshield fluid at a buck a gallon. Super Tech 2000
it's 41% methanol and has no additives. Can't hurt to run a mixture the meth raises octane rating and then you adjust afr's and increase mileage a little.

Really a good safety measure for for early non IC 930's.

Cole

[cole930]

DR,

Glad to have you here, we can use some experience and you can help me field some of Jim's fast balls !!!!

Cole

[drmatera]

Cole, I don't have it on my 930 yet but it's coming. It's a great safety measure. I pushed it beyond safe on my last turbocharged vehicle without failure just to prove to myself it worked. On a mild 930 combo without an intercooler I would use atleast a single M5 nozzle.

I used -20* washer fluid for awhile with good results. It's cheap, easy to find and pretty consistant. I did however find straight meth gave the best results for all out power.

[mark houghton]

Let's see....methanol has a boiling point of around 150 degrees F, and water 212. Theoretically and 40/60 meth/water blend would boil at about 185 degrees. So a person would think that in order to get the mixture to vaporize instantly and cool the air charge, it would need to be raised quickly to 185 degrees. How best to do that, where to inject? Well, directly after the turbo where the air charge is at it's hottest.

Enough theorizing and boring everyone. I do like the idea of Walmart bug cleaner powered 930's.

[JFairman]

:I do like the idea of Walmart bug cleaner powered 930's."

lol... good one!

..remember Walmart buys from the lowest bidder and the contents labeling on a bottle of antifreeze windsheild washer may not be consistant or anywhere near accurate... so be ready..

and how do you know there is no detonation?

[cole930]

Gimp,

The mixture is injected in the neck of the IC just before the TB. The mixture is atomized as it comes out of the nozzle. By the time it gets to the cylinders any vapor left turns to steam instantly.


Cole

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by cole930

Gimp,

The mixture is injected in the neck of the IC just before the TB. The mixture is atomized as it comes our of the nozzle. By the time it gets to the cylinders any vapor left turns to steam instantly.
Cole

So the nozzel atomizes via a high pressure pump I presume, and the air vortex/velocity at the TB finishes the job, but it ultimately heat that gets this stuff to transition from liquid to gaseous phase...which is where it will absorb the heat from the air. If that transition could happen sooner...as in before the IC, then you might even get some evaporative cooling of the IC itself and help with heat soak. Just theorizing again; I'm sure the designers have this all figured out.

[LOWFAT]

Hmmm just one more reason to throw money into the ol ride , I'm in. I will be watching to see what happens, I know the Subaru guy's run these systems quite a bit.

[cole930]

Gimp,

You never cease to amaze me. You can add a nozzle in the turbo intake inlet
injecting directly into the turbo impeller. You just T off the IC nozzle line and take one down to the turbo.

Cole

[drmatera]

you don't want to spray a substantial amount of liquid before the intercooler as it may pool up. Besides, let the intercooler do it's job... Let the WMI cool the intake manifold, intake port, intake valve and combustion chamber which is where the real source of detonation is.

I have seen guys spray meth into the turbo compressor, but don't get to carried away there.

Mark, my last set up had 150psi of flowing pressure. The liquid came out of the nozzle looking like dust. Very fine mist.

New kits on the market today use 220psi pumps for even better atomization.

and Jim has a point about the consistancy of mixture. But once again unless you are using the WMI get your tune over the edge it won't be a concern. Besides, my EFI system will detect a WMI failure and retard timing and boost while dumping additional fuel

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by cole930

One of my major concerns was what happens if you have a system failure at 1.2 Bar of boost. Snow has an optional Safeinjection module that protects against such failures. Though it's not cheap, the safety module monitors and shuts the system down if there is a failure. You have 3 monitor led's for pump failure, power failure, pressure and clog failure, and low fluid. If any faults occur boost is then limited to wastegate spring pressure, timing is retarded, and the system is disabled.

The best way to approach this is to prevent the boost from reaching 1.2 BAR if the WMI pressure is not there. This could be done through an electronic boost controller to be triggered by a loss of WMI pressure then allowing the wastegate to open. Also, if there is a loss of WMI pressure the wastegate should open too.

[TIM.G 911]

I have been running alcohol injection for years on a highly modified turbo buick and love it! Premium pump gas 93/94 octane with pure methanol, no water, at 25-27 lbs of boost so thats what about 2 bar? And have zero knock! Did not have much luck mixing with water or denatured alcohol but with 99.9 percent pure methanol it runs great! At roughly $5.00 a gallon and a gallon lasting quite a while its way cheaper than race gas. On the buick it is mounted after the intercooler about 6-8 inches from the throttle body.

Alky kit will be on the turbo 911sc this winter.

Good luck with your kit it sound like a decent set up.

Tim

[A930Rocket]

Cole,

Keeps the pix coming. I've seen the nozzle between the intercoler and TB, but not before.

During a dyno run a good while back, I had my hand on my intercooler and it got so hot, I could not leave it on there. So while Mark has a good thought about installing it before the intercooler, I would worry about it pooling in there as well.

It would be interesting to see if a system to measure temps before the IC and after the MWI to check the temp differences. I know it's done at the intercooler, but just not sure how you could do it after the TB.

356-930 had a Snow system I believe.