930 Water/ Methanol Injection - Page 2

polizei · 10-07-2010, 07:15 PM

Cole,

Glad to hear that others are pursuing WMI! Please keep the info/pics flowing.

I'll be going with an Aquamist HFS-3 on my turbo carrera. Aquamist systems were priced up in the stratosphere up until this year. I'm guessing that you're into your Snow Performance System for $500+? The HFS-3 runs for around $700:

Howerton Engineering Aquamist HFS-3

The nice thing about the HFS-3 is that it comes with a single gauge that indicates flow rate and fluid level. Very slick setup. We'll be installing one injector on each side of the manifold.

Best of luck!

cole930 · 05:35 AM

I've decided to do this strictly as an insurance policy against detonation.

There are claims of a 10-15 % power increase if you choose to use it as a performance enhancement. Reportadly the WMI will allow you to run 50% more boost, 20o more advance, and lower your afr's 1 full point and do it safely. Suposadly it will raise octane from 91 to 110-115. So no race gas needed. I'm so old I couldn't hear detonation if I had it so for me it's insurance.

I working in the dark on this one guy's all I know is what I've researched and heard. So keep the cards and letters coming and we can all learn together.

I'm going to try and do a picture thread of the install so we can start gathering some information on WMI and how beneficial it is, OR NOT.

To give you an idea of what I am doing I'll start with some of the components.

The tank is a 2 1/2 Gal and has a quick connect that connects the tank to the pump. The tank also has a level switch in it with an output that warns of low fluid as well as being tied into the safety module and a yellow warning led for the dash. I will be using Wall Mart Super Tech 2000 washer fuid that is 42% methanol and 58% water.

The pump is a 220 PSI push pump that is way more pressure than really needed, but we all know more has to be better. It also connects to the safety module which will trigger a fault output if there is pump clog, low flow,or pump failure with a usable control signal output as well as a red led warning lite.

The controller runs the system and allows you to set mode (MAP or Boost) you then set a start boost pressure (typicaly 4-5 PSI) and a max boost pressure for injection operation. Injection is interpulated in the controller based on the low/high settings and injects metered mixture based the real time slope off the boost signal.

The safety module monitors the system and gives you output capability to allow shut down of components in the event of a failure and turns on the respective led's. Your flow rate and a flow delay are ajustable on the safety module. The failure outputs allow you to select components to shut down when a failure and this is done through relays to protect the system from high voltage spikes. I am outputing to the EBC boost sloenoid and the MSD to simultaniously cut boost, retarding timing, and cutting flow if there is a failure detected.

Presently I am locating components and making a chassis to mount the control components on. I made a chassis last nite and am waiting for terminal strips and relays to get here. I will continue to post pictures and progress as I go.

Keep up the feed back, questions, and answers. We are either going to prove or disprove the effectiveness of a WMI system on a 930.

Cole

cole930 · 10:02 PM

Andy,

That's great. Aquamist is the very best. Hope your install goes well. We would appreciate your feedback as you go along. Thanks for the post and good luck.

Cole

mark houghton · 10-07-2010, 08:44 PM

Cole, will you be taking out the MSD 6782 boost ignition retard module and just going with the straight 6AL, or will the Megasquirt work in conjunction with the 6782?

This is going to be a good thread, I can tell. Worthy of a sticky....

cole930 · 10-07-2010, 10:01 PM

Gimp,

I sold the old MSD and have a 6Al-2 8530 programmable. It should work great with this as I don't have to worry so much about the timing advance and retard.
I can instantly retard the MSD straight off a fault from the WMI by sending a 12vdc signal output to the purple retard wire on the MSD. I can even program how much timing I want it to dump. Now that's way cool.

Cole

infraredcalvin · infraredcalvin's Garage

Subscribed! Keep the info coming. I too am looking for an intercooler alternative for an early car.

quattrorunner · quattrorunner's Garage

Subed

911st · 10-08-2010, 12:58 AM

Here to learn.

Sounds interesting as insurance. Just be carfull with jacking the boost as the stock head to cylinder joint can only handle so much pressure.

What do we think we are talking about as to quanity needed to say a tank of gas on the track?

Are there other additives that come with the windsheld cleaner?

Interesting.

mark houghton · 10-08-2010, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cole930

Gimp,

I sold the old MSD and have a 6Al-2 8530 programmable. It should work great with this as I don't have to worry so much about the timing advance and retard.
I can instantly retard the MSD straight off a fault from the WMI by sending a 12vdc signal output to the purple retard wire on the MSD. I can even program how much timing I want it to dump. Now that's way cool.

Cole

That's right, I forgot, last year's Christmas present. You're going to go insane this winter hookin' up all the new stuff when it's snowing outside.

A930Rocket · 10-08-2010, 06:22 AM

I was googleing around and read on one page where they said that you should run 15% to 20% of fuel flow.* At 15% 20 gallons of fuel would use 3 gallons of water.

Quote:

Here to learn.

Sounds interesting as insurance. Just be carfull with jacking the boost as the stock head to cylinder joint can only handle so much pressure.

What do we think we are talking about as to quanity needed to say a tank of gas on the track?

Are there other additives that come with the windsheld cleaner?

Interesting.

cole930 · 11:40 AM

Calvin: Welcome, WMI was made for you. It's a great alternative for early
non IC 930's. Wish Chris Toy was still in the fouled as he ran it on a
non IC'd 930 powered 356 Speedster with great success. Chris was
very knowledgeable and swore by it.

Keith: Great to hear from you. From what I have read a street driven car
will fill the 2.5 gal tank once between 2-3 tanks of gas. On a good
track day he usually topped it off twice.

Most people run washer fluid, it can be spiked with a can of heet
if you want to pick up the go juice content. I've attached a sheet
on washer fluids and the methanol content in each. If your real
brave you can run straight methanol. Stay away from those
washer fluids with anti freeze.

Gimp: My wife already thinks I'm insane. I look at all this s--- and say "well
so much for the only change one thing at a time" rule.

The nozzel used for 350-475 RWHP is 350 ml/min. Typical street application duty cycle is 5% - 8% as the system only injects during boost and at a progressive rate.

Cole

wjfk32 · 10-08-2010, 07:01 AM

Cole, great work!!!!

Keep the pix coming- as per Rocket. Great!!!!

Walt

JBurer · 10-08-2010, 07:51 AM

Think it's great water/meth injection is taking a foothold with the 930 community. Some other makes have been using these systems with huge success for many years now.

Subscribed! Let the fun begin!

smurfbus · 10-08-2010, 07:59 AM

I have two M5 nozzles at 150psi with 550chp 2.7L twinturbo and I've used meth based washer fluid for about 3yrs. now with good results. Sometimes I mix it 50/50 and when hot I use it straight.

cole930 · 10:01 AM

Walt; really great to see you here. I'm pretty excited and this is a good project for all of us. I have a real interest in this one as I think WMI could be a real
help to us boosters from a safety perspective alone. I figure if I never turn up the wick it's still worth the investment just for the peace of mind. I'm trying to look at any down side to making this choice and can't really find one. It is, in fact, proven that WMI will drastically reduce detonation and the only downside I see is system failure or filling the tank. With the safeties built into the system that will prevent any damage if a system failure would occur. But you only put yourself in that position if you turn the wick up. Always interested in any input you might have.

JBurer: Thanks for joining in.
I talked with Chris Carroll at Turbokraft a couple weeks ago and asked what his thoughts were. Chris said he had little or no exposure. He did tell me his shop,s neighbor is a Ricer Tuner and does really wild 1000HP Rice Sleds and uses WMI of almost everything. Chris had been talking with him about it and Chris would like to try it. It would really be great to get some feedback from him.

Busman: Holy S--- what a build you have. That has to be some serious fun. I appreciate some more experience with WMI you can help keep me from stepping on my dick while I do this.

Starting to look at wiring on this project and figuring out what all is needed. I've decided to add a WMI cutoff solenoid in the engine compartment to eliminate WM from siphoning back to the tank when the system stops injecting.This will deter any spray delay and keep air out.

Looks like we need to pull 2 wires and the juice tube back to the engine compartment. The wires will take care of the retard output to the MSD and the other will activate the cutoff solenoid. There will be 5 wires going to the dash for the 3 warning LED's and 2 to the boost controller to it interrupt boost solenoid if a failure occurs. Looks like everything else can be done on our custom roof flashing chassis.

Cole

911st · 08:14 AM

Thanks Cold and A930Rocket on the run rate.

I was told to stay away from the E85 and such type fuels. That it will rot one's motor parts if not built for it.

Is this different with Methanol? Or is it how it is used and that it has its own delivery system?

drmatera · 10-08-2010, 08:35 AM

Actually methanol is many times more corrosive than E85. E85 is theoretically corrosive, but in the real word many people find zero effects when running E85 in a gasoline based engine. There are precautions you can take, I use Sta-bil alcohol treatment with every tank of E85 I run thru my 930. I also plan on running one tank of gasoline for every 6 E85 tanks just to further ensure the longevity of my cars fuel system.

I know I will get flack for the above statements but having first hand experience actually using E85 in my own vehicles I can say I have seen NO ill effects.

carry on

drmatera · 10-08-2010, 08:37 AM

But, I will say pump gas / WMI is an awesome combination for any forced induction vehicle..

mark houghton · 10-08-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911st

Thanks Cold and A930Rocket on the run rate.

I was told to stay away from the E85 and such type fuels. That it will rot one's motor parts if not built for it.

Is this different with Methanol? Or is it how it is used and that it has its own delivery system?

If you're concerned about the corrosive nature of methanol in E85 blends, the corrosion as far as I understand it has more to do with the fuel delivery system....anywhere the fuel makes contact with metal and rubber parts. Methanol/water injection would be in contact only with the air intake system and I'm thinking corrosion would be a non-issue.

If still concerned, then I would recommend going with an ethanol/water injection, say about 90 proof, with a separate line plumbed to the cockpit for those occasional sips to keep us pointed in the right direction.

cole930 · 09:29 AM

You don't want to store any parts in a jar of methanol but, with the WMI the ratio of WM to gas is nearly nil because of the WMI duty cycle and the atomization of the mixture. The additives and lubricants in the gas will wash away methanol trace. Kind of like alcohol dragsters they flush the motor with gas between runs. One added benifit of WMI is that it will keep your cylinders, piston domes, valves, and intake steam cleaned.

Cole