engine in car IMSreplacement???

[Scnell Gelb]

If anyone is interested in a "how could it possibly go wrong?" IMSB Thread,read this:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-996-997-991-forum/844084-cant-rotate-engine-after-ims-bearing-change.html
Kudos to Wayne for fixing the Instructions with grace !

[wikan]

Wow, guys-didn't intend to promote a spitting match!!!!!
as the guy who threw the first punch- please let me say this.
#1- if not for this forum and Pelican and JFP- odds are my Box would be on the way to the breakers instead of anticipating another 175K miles !!!.
That being said- it is sheer paternalism and massive egotism to assume that all "newbies" are at once idiots. Impact guns notwithstanding.
One might instead actually assume that if a person has their car on their own lift with the tiptronic out- there must exist at least a modicum of ability.
If not, well, you just can't save the whole world....
I merely pointed out I see/saw a lot of inconsistencies in advice regarding this procedure, and JFP is the only one who has the grace to turn on a flashlight for me.
I have no doubt I will be talking to Wayne fairly soon- as I need to make an order to complete this project.
As for the bearings choices- man this is a toughie! It's been pointed out that NONE of the items have a 100% unblemished record. No surprise, guys- entropy is the law of the universe...
Sooner or later, everything breaks.
In deference to the LN product- it looks really good. But consider this. It is my impression that bearing and tools can get north of 1200 pretty quickly. Looking around the web- seems a reasonable mileage 2.7 can be had in the 2-3K range. I have 175,000 miles on my 2003, and haven't taken off the flywheel yet. Pretty good track record for the factory bearing. Is tough for me to spend 1/2 the cost of a breakers engine on one bearing.....
Wayne has some other considerations to boot. To resell the factory bearing doesn't look too bad from my chair, lucky dog that I am. and he has a business to run. Is pretty easy math that one must survive to live another day. 165 bucks versus 700 bucks notwithstanding, if someone actually replaced the bearing every 30K miles, then the Pelican bearing would be 120K miles on new bearings for the same bucks....not a bad deal....I've got 175K on the original bearing!!! I just am not interested in pulling the tranny every 30K to replace considering I drive 120 mile daily commute!!!!So all things being equal, will opt for the bearing that gives me the best chance of survivability for this little go buggy I've come to like so well......
Now, who sells the aftermarket cam locks???????haven't found them = all the cam kits seem to have 1 lock in them , and is my understanding from all the procedure's out there that 2 are needed!!!!

[chamilun]

are the kits on amazon ie Porsche 911/Boxster 996/997/987 Engine Timing Tool Kit (and see similar
items for sale at the product page) not sufficient?

[wikan]

Originally Posted by chamilun

are the kits on amazon ie Porsche 911/Boxster 996/997/987 Engine Timing Tool Kit (and see similar
items for sale at the product page) not sufficient?

Don't know- excellent point- is better wording of the question I'm asking.
What I see is 2 cam locks of equal length needed, and all the timing kits appear to come with 1 short and 1 long cam lock.
Is my impression 2 cam locks and the LN tools is what's needed to do this job, and not the other items in the timing kits....I bought the 9595 and 9595/1 TDC pins, so having the TDC tool isn't an issue for me since they were needed to pull the transmission. Seems I recall written Wayne at Pelican parts saying the cam locks are now available separately...guess I'll find out when I call tomorrow!!!

[thom4782]

When considering an IMS bearing replacement, one should ask two questions:

1. Which replacement bearing design will last the longest
2. Who is best person to do the work

When considering which bearing design will last the longest, there are two sub-questions to also consider:

1. Should the replacement bearing be sealed or unsealed
2. Which bearing design has the highest load carrying capacity

The general consensus seems to be that unsealed bearing designs are better than sealed ones because they avoid the failure mode where bearing grease and oil mix together and degrade lubrication. There have been heated debates whether splash oil lubrication is adequate for lubricating unsealed bearings. The LN retrofit data suggests the answer is yes. Direct oil feed advocates would argue the splash oil isn't up to the task, but none have been willing to state how much longer their designs will extend bearing life beyond splash oil lubrication alone.

The IMS Solution, which only fits the early single row IMSB engines has the highest load carrying capacity. Dual row ceramic bearings - like the IMS Retrofit and Gen 2 Single Row Pro Retrofit - as well as the roller bearing designs come next. Single row designs have lower load carrying capacities.

Finally, whether you are a professional, a seasoned shade tree mechanic or a newbie, the best installers share several key characteristics. They fully understand what the best procedure is for carrying out the replacement, they have and use the proper tools, and most importantly they don't cut corners.

The answers to the questions above aren't black and white. If you search the forums, you'll see lots of opinions. Your challenges will be to separate fact from marketing hype. I did my homework and I was 1) lucky enough to afford the IMS Solution, which in my opinion will likely last the longest and 2) smart enough to know I'd didn't have the skills to replace the bearing myself.

[Scnell Gelb]

One little caveat. The factory bearing is sealed and the failure is related to seal failure. Logically -do not rely on seals .
There was a recent thread about 'venting the seals. A creative move to discover the causes of IMSB failure.
Some would also say the mode of failure indicates (as you imply) lubrication failure ,which in turn produces damage that looks like load failure. Usually the seals are compromised.
IMS Solution - definitely the best inMHO.

[Scnell Gelb]

Just to clarify, several of the IMSB retrofit products have one of the seals removed.The bearings may be deep-groove ball, ceramic or roller but the 0ne-seal-removed feature is a common factor when relying on splash or DOF lubrication.
The sealed+greased bearing option - seal venting applies to upgraded retrofit bearings with ultra high temperature rated seals(Viton) and packed with very high temperature grease. Presumably the very small(?)vent is opened at the top of the seals only. Just google SKF 6204C3 GJN 2RS.
Not a recommendation just a report of Forum discussion.

[wikan]

Originally Posted by thom4782

When considering an IMS bearing replacement, one should ask two questions:

1. Which replacement bearing design will last the longest
2. Who is best person to do the work

When considering which bearing design will last the longest, there are two sub-questions to also consider:

1. Should the replacement bearing be sealed or unsealed
2. Which bearing design has the highest load carrying capacity

The general consensus seems to be that unsealed bearing designs are better than sealed ones because they avoid the failure mode where bearing grease and oil mix together and degrade lubrication. There have been heated debates whether splash oil lubrication is adequate for lubricating unsealed bearings. The LN retrofit data suggests the answer is yes. Direct oil feed advocates would argue the splash oil isn't up to the task, but none have been willing to state how much longer their designs will extend bearing life beyond splash oil lubrication alone.

The IMS Solution, which only fits the early single row IMSB engines has the highest load carrying capacity. Dual row ceramic bearings - like the IMS Retrofit and Gen 2 Single Row Pro Retrofit - as well as the roller bearing designs come next. Single row designs have lower load carrying capacities.

Finally, whether you are a professional, a seasoned shade tree mechanic or a newbie, the best installers share several key characteristics. They fully understand what the best procedure is for carrying out the replacement, they have and use the proper tools, and most importantly they don't cut corners.

The answers to the questions above aren't black and white. If you search the forums, you'll see lots of opinions. Your challenges will be to separate fact from marketing hype. I did my homework and I was 1) lucky enough to afford the IMS Solution, which in my opinion will likely last the longest and 2) smart enough to know I'd didn't have the skills to replace the bearing myself.

thom4782/Schnell Gelb- agree on a number of things- something that eliminates the bearing entirely like the IMS solution is probably "the best",based on what I've read and researched. The fact that it is also most expensive isn't co-incidental!! not intending to split words, but the best doesn't always mean most appropriate. In an application such as mine- the engine with 175K, it just doesn't make much sense to spend 1700 plus labour to extend an eventual trip to the breakers for another engine or to a final resting place. So , in that sense, it isn't the best solution for my application.
it has also been my experience that once the weak link is addressed, the next weakest thing is now the route to disaster. So, regardless of time and bucks spent- disaster is always the next option in line...
VERY interesting and pertinent observation you point out- the failures seem to be more of keeping lubricant in than load and shearing force out. That said- too strong a component may wind up being just that..
thankfully, am only playing around with a couple grand of parts and a lot of labour, mostly mine!

[chamilun]

ok then, rehash aside, anyone know the correct tool to lock the cams???

[wikan]

Originally Posted by chamilun

ok then, rehash aside, anyone know the correct tool to lock the cams???

thank you, chamilun!! is what I'm looking to get!!!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

thank you, chamilun!! is what I'm looking to get!!!

There are two different cam holding tools, a long style for 3 chain engines, and a short one for 5 chain engines. You should have the 3 chain engine:

[wikan]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

There are two different cam holding tools, a long style for 3 chain engines, and a short one for 5 chain engines. You should have the 3 chain engine:

jfp - thanks! my impression is that 2 are needed, 2 of the long locks in the case of my 03 car. illustration is there is 1 lock only in the kit- so I need to find where I can buy a second lock without buying a second kit.

Phoned Pelican yesterday, and the salesman essentially said he doesn't know enough about it to answer-( at least he was being honest!) send an email to one of his higher-ups and would get an answer. sent the e-mail, answer hasn't happened as of yet......
Has been a long time since I've made a phone call to a company looking to spend money - and no-one can find an answer that let's me spend my money!!!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

jfp - thanks! my impression is that 2 are needed, 2 of the long locks in the case of my 03 car. illustration is there is 1 lock only in the kit- so I need to find where I can buy a second lock without buying a second kit.

Phoned Pelican yesterday, and the salesman essentially said he doesn't know enough about it to answer-( at least he was being honest!) send an email to one of his higher-ups and would get an answer. sent the e-mail, answer hasn't happened as of yet......
Has been a long time since I've made a phone call to a company looking to spend money - and no-one can find an answer that let's me spend my money!!!

You actually do not need two; read items # 5 & 6 in this PDF of the LN instructions: http://lnengineering.com/files/IMSR-Instruction-Warranty.pdf

[2k-986-s]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

You actually do not need two; read items # 5 & 6 in this PDF of the LN instructions: http://lnengineering.com/files/IMSR-Instruction-Warranty.pdf

Per JFP comment- I followed the LN instructions and used only one cam loc on my 5 chain 2000 S. I did think about modifying the 3 chain loc to install on Bank 2, but after doing some research I opted not to and so far everything is good.

[wikan]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

You actually do not need two; read items # 5 & 6 in this PDF of the LN instructions: http://lnengineering.com/files/IMSR-Instruction-Warranty.pdf

jfp- I can see that with 3 chains- if one cam is locked only small chance of the other slipping. I have a high risk tolerance, just a really low "take a chance" tolerance.
Unless there's something like both locked holds things too firmly and releasing the tensioners won't provide enough "slop" to remove the bearing, I'd just as soon lock them both and breathe a little easier.
With a car that has already given me 175K miles of fun, this next bit is tough to say.
I want to get that bearing cover off before I decide which bearing to put in, and it seems to me doubly locked might be wise.
If the current bearing is presentable- then LN it is and I enjoy the car hopefully many more years.
If the bearing looks suspect- well, LN says- stop- don't put their bearing in. In that case- I go with the pelican part and offer back up the replacement tranny, and drive to someplace like CarMax and trade on to my next automotive adventure...
If I had 2 locks to be able to list the cover with least risk- then will be in best shape to make a choice.
In the second case- there won't be a new water pump, AOS, RMS, etc.
If all looks good- then I get to make a great shopping list!
So, is there a not evident liability in locking both on the 3 chain car like mine?
Again, my thanks for all your help !!!!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

jfp- I can see that with 3 chains- if one cam is locked only small chance of the other slipping. I have a high risk tolerance, just a really low "take a chance" tolerance.
Unless there's something like both locked holds things too firmly and releasing the tensioners won't provide enough "slop" to remove the bearing, I'd just as soon lock them both and breathe a little easier.
With a car that has already given me 175K miles of fun, this next bit is tough to say.
I want to get that bearing cover off before I decide which bearing to put in, and it seems to me doubly locked might be wise.
If the current bearing is presentable- then LN it is and I enjoy the car hopefully many more years.
If the bearing looks suspect- well, LN says- stop- don't put their bearing in. In that case- I go with the pelican part and offer back up the replacement tranny, and drive to someplace like CarMax and trade on to my next automotive adventure...
If I had 2 locks to be able to list the cover with least risk- then will be in best shape to make a choice.
In the second case- there won't be a new water pump, AOS, RMS, etc.
If all looks good- then I get to make a great shopping list!
So, is there a not evident liability in locking both on the 3 chain car like mine?
Again, my thanks for all your help !!!!

Locking both cams would obviously reduce the odds of anything happening further than just using one, but I have to say that most shops only lock the one side and have not had any issues. The only problem with going your route is that you will need to fabricate the second lock. Not a problem for any decent machine shop to make a duplicate, but as I have never seen an install kit with two for sale, or someone selling just the cam holding tool, you would need to source the second one yourself.

And if you check your cam deviation values before you start and they are in range, drop your sump and there is no metal or debris in the sump or filter, you are good to go with any bearing you choose.

[wikan]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Locking both cams would obviously reduce the odds of anything happening further than just using one, but I have to say that most shops only lock the one side and have not had any issues. The only problem with going your route is that you will need to fabricate the second lock. Not a problem for any decent machine shop to make a duplicate, but as I have never seen an install kit with two for sale, or someone selling just the cam holding tool, you would need to source the second one yourself.

And if you check your cam deviation values before you start and they are in range, drop your sump and there is no metal or debris in the sump or filter, you are good to go with any bearing you choose.

I appreciate your help.
got in the IMS retrofit kit, and have been reading directions multiple times.
Says to put cam lock on cam closest to flywheel. Looking at the engine in car from the rear- I interpret this as one on the drivers side. Is this correct?
Call me a worry wart- I'll be second guessing myself in this thing!!!
Also it raise the question- if only 1 cam lock is needed, is there a "wrong side" to use the lock on?
Both front and backside green cover plugs are off, and all 4 shaft end are standing 12 to 6 straight up and down. cam lock is on the transmission side, drivers side of engine. From all I read- that makes it safe to remove the IMS plate and get a look-see at this bearing- yes?

[JFP in PA]

This happens to be a Cayman, but the layout is the same; you can clearly see the two green plugs on the left bank:



One side is preferable over the other because of the way the cam chains run.

When the green plugs are out and the engine is at TDC, the cams should look like this:

[wikan]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

This happens to be a Cayman, but the layout is the same; you can clearly see the two green plugs on the left bank:



One side is preferable over the other because of the way the cam chains run.

When the green plugs are out and the engine is at TDC, the cams should look like this:

Yep- all four of the cam ends are just like that- noon to 6. Cam tool is on left bank, engine locked at TDC by the pin, tool 9595 at front of engine.
So, the left bank is the proper bank to place the cam lock, yes?
If so, then I can go through the steps to remove the IMS cover.
Again, my thanks!

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by wikan

Yep- all four of the cam ends are just like that- noon to 6. Cam tool is on left bank, engine locked at TDC by the pin, tool 9595 at front of engine.
So, the left bank is the proper bank to place the cam lock, yes?
If so, then I can go through the steps to remove the IMS cover.
Again, my thanks!

Remember to remove the tensioners before starting to remove the IMS flange cover.