Shortage of workers .

[Don Ro]

The dignity of work.
Trump's apprenticeship and vocation training.
June 18, 2017
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Trump Apprenticeships Executive Order: How It'll Create Jobs | Fortune

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by legion

I've been having this conversation with a lot of people lately...

We need a "middle path" in this country.

Right now, there are two paths. If you are an A, B, or C student (and even some D students), you go to college, accumulate a huge amount of debt, and hopefully go on to an office job that allows you to pay back that debt. But the sad truth is that college is very expensive and not all office jobs pay well enough to realistically pay back even what is today a modest education. If you are a D or F student, you are funneled into the trades assuming you manage to stay out of prison. (D student with strong athletic skills? You will be made into a C student.)

Before WWII, only the A students and the very wealthy went to college. The B and C students went into the trades, and the rest struggled to get by.

I think we need to get away from "everyone goes to college". It is far to expensive to be used as a litmus test for intelligence and work ethic, as it was in the past. Instead, we need to get some of the B and C students back into the trades. I'm not sure how to make this happen.

I think the problem is the trades actually require physical work. Been there, done that. The first time some of these kids have to get in a crawl space that's just deep enough to move around but not deep enough to roll over, they'll be looking for another line of work. That or when they have to go into an attic when it's 90 outside, they'll be looking for another job. The trades pay well but by no means is it easy work and I think that's the biggest part of the problem. Hard to find people who actually want to work.

[daepp]

"Like most other American high school students, Garret Morgan had it drummed into him constantly: Go to college. Get a bachelor's degree.

"All through my life it was, 'if you don't go to college you're going to end up on the streets,' " Morgan said. "Everybody's so gung-ho about going to college."

So he tried it for a while. Then he quit and started training as an ironworker, which is what he is doing on a weekday morning in a nondescript high-ceilinged building with a concrete floor in an industrial park near the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport...

Seattle is a forest of construction cranes, and employers are clamoring for skilled ironworkers. Morgan, who is 20, is already working on a job site when he isn't at the Pacific Northwest Ironworkers shop. He gets benefits, including a pension, from employers at the job sites where he is training. And he is earning $28.36 an hour, or more than $50,000 a year, which is almost certain to steadily increase.

As for his friends from high school, "they're still in college," he said with a wry grin. "Someday maybe they'll make as much as me."

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

[legion]

That's exactly it David. I think there are plenty of intelligent students out there who would be better off not going to college and not accumulating a hug debt to work in a job they hate and doesn't pay all that well.

I do things with my hands on weekends to recharge from the soul-sucking office environment. I am fortunate to have a well-paying job and to have gotten a degree when they were much cheaper than they are now.

BTW, I was in a 100º+ attic last summer, with a halogen lamp to install a proper ventilation system for my bathroom vents.

[fastfredracing]

I remember how upset my parents were when I told them , Im dropping out of college to be an auto mechanic.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by legion

That's exactly it David. I think there are plenty of intelligent students out there who would be better off not going to college and not accumulating a hug debt to work in a job they hate and doesn't pay all that well.

I do things with my hands on weekends to recharge from the soul-sucking office environment. I am fortunate to have a well-paying job and to have gotten a degree when they were much cheaper than they are now.

BTW, I was in a 100º+ attic last summer, with a halogen lamp to install a proper ventilation system for my bathroom vents.

And it sucked 100%. Now spend an entire day or two in an attic like that installing a new system because the old one failed and the homeowner can't live without A/C or the office needs A/C for the computer systems. I have built homes, installed HVAC systems both residential and commercial. I know what the job requires and I just don't think a lot of people are willing to put their body through it. I know I regret putting mine through it. I know what plumbers and electricians go through as well. The other aspect when talking about plumbing, electrical or HVAC specifically is the on call time. There's a lot to be said for a decent 9-5 which is why I decided that saving for my kids college was the best thing I could do for them so they could work with their mind rather than their body. Working in a lot of the trades will make you old before you're actually old.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Wages for workers is about added value. If the cost of a worker is higher than the value they add, the price of the product must go up. If it cannot, then the company will go out of business, or figure out a way to eliminate the low productive worker.

If McDonalds is FORCED to pay $15/hr, it will eliminate all positions that do not add $15 in value. I did not work at McDonalds, but I read about them in "The Electronic Sweatshop". McDonalds has always been at the forefront of Industrial Engineering. Time motion studies, general efficiency, waste elimination. Everything to eek out a little more profit. The whole "super size" model is all about up sizing profit per transaction, not profit per material sold.

In the end, robots WILL be trained to do the work of men. The only ones who will make money will be those who generate intellectual property. And those that fix the robots.

I like this.

[mepstein]

Originally Posted by cabmando

And it sucked 100%. Now spend an entire day or two in an attic like that installing a new system because the old one failed and the homeowner can't live without A/C or the office needs A/C for the computer systems. I have built homes, installed HVAC systems both residential and commercial. I know what the job requires and I just don't think a lot of people are willing to put their body through it. I know I regret putting mine through it. I know what plumbers and electricians go through as well. The other aspect when talking about plumbing, electrical or HVAC specifically is the on call time. There's a lot to be said for a decent 9-5 which is why I decided that saving for my kids college was the best thing I could do for them so they could work with their mind rather than their body. Working in a lot of the trades will make you old before you're actually old.

I've seen this a lot as I've grown up. Poor working conditions and people get hurt all the time. My son just graduated college and even though he didn't get a degree to get a job, he's starting out with a strong 6 figure salary. So are all his friends. It's easier to add value to a company with your mind than with your body.

His "crushing" college debt amounts to $24K.He has plans to pay that back in the next 2 years before he goes back to grad school to get his MBA.

His sister will probably do something very similar when she graduates. Neither of them go to school with the aim of a job, they've gone to get a great education. The companies seek out and offer jobs to these kids because they want the best people working for them.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by legion

I think we need to get away from "everyone goes to college". It is far to expensive to be used as a litmus test for intelligence and work ethic, as it was in the past. Instead, we need to get some of the B and C students back into the trades. I'm not sure how to make this happen.

I'll tell you what might do the trick. Right now, in Western Washington, Equipment Operators get $60, Electricians get $72, Sheet Metal Workers get $78, Plumbers get $82, etc. For a straight time hour. We need them. Great benefits. Those jobs can't be outsourced and it will be quite some time before robots can do the work.

Originally Posted by red-beard

Wages for workers is about added value. ....If McDonalds is FORCED to pay $15/hr, it will eliminate all positions that do not add $15 in value. I did not work at McDonalds, but I read about them in "The Electronic Sweatshop". McDonalds has always been at the forefront of Industrial Engineering. Time motion studies, general efficiency, waste elimination. Everything to eek out a little more profit.

Yes, it is about math. Not just industrial engineering, but also economics. When a local minimum wage was raised to $15 per hour, the fast food industry said the sky would fall. Further, they said Earth's orbit would decay and we would burn up in the Sun. So far, that has not happened and the price of a burger seems the same too.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by mepstein

I've seen this a lot as I've grown up. Poor working conditions and people get hurt all the time. My son just graduated college and even though he didn't get a degree to get a job, he's starting out with a strong 6 figure salary. So are all his friends. It's easier to add value to a company with your mind than with your body.

His "crushing" college debt amounts to $24K.He has plans to pay that back in the next 2 years before he goes back to grad school to get his MBA.

His sister will probably do something very similar when she graduates. Neither of them go to school with the aim of a job, they've gone to get a great education. The companies seek out and offer jobs to these kids because they want the best people working for them.

A six-figure starting salary is pretty impressive. I wouldn't' have expected that with an MBA.

I agree. If you are "college material" and can do well in a degree area that pays well and is in demand, it seems the way to go. Obviously, one does not have to run up a he debt to get a degree.

[tabs]

Well my degree cost 5K and I havn't done a lick of work since. Well I did have a union job. It paid well.

[ckelly78z]

From just having my son graduate from high school last year, I can tell you that the peer pressure, school pressure, and other parent pressure is to go to college, and work in an office is rediculous. Some parents went so far to say that he wasn't going to a real college when he chose a trade school, (Most likeley mad he wouldn't be indoctrinated to the liberal mindset at 4 year colleges). My son has never been an over achiever in the classroom, but absolutely excells at diesel tech school st UNOH. He is proud of the welding skills he has, and is usually at the top of his class because he WANTS to be there. He is a shy farm boy who doesn't say much, but has a good work ethic that he learned from his parents.

Some of his freinds are already foundering, and dropping out of University, and going to work in the trades.....it isn't for everybody !

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by fintstone

A six-figure starting salary is pretty impressive. I wouldn't' have expected that with an MBA.

I agree. If you are "college material" and can do well in a degree area that pays well and is in demand, it seems the way to go. Obviously, one does not have to run up a he debt to get a degree.

It looks like some have misconstrued "it isn't for everybody", with "it isn't for anybody".

[mepstein]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

It looks like some have misconstrued "it isn't for everybody", with "it isn't for anybody".

Exactly. Unfortunately, many schools try to get kids on a certain tract or path instead of exposing them to all the opportunities. My son actually went in for pre med but now is in finance. He majored in physics and minored in math because that's where his passion was. Did a couple internships to further figure out his passion. One of the internships didn't pay, didn't matter because it gave him more education.

My dad had told my kids years ago, you can loose a job but you can't loose an education.

[tevake]

I had an interesting experence last night of a penny pinching employer shooting themselves in the foot.
Some cousins visiting here were waiting outside a popular oyster bar restaurant with my brother and I, along with 15/20 other people. When a waitress came out with a sign saying they could only serve oysters and beer.

She went on to say that the cook had just walked out. And that folks in Fl just don't want to work. Seems the cook had gotten feed up at working in the hot kitchen for $8 per hour and left.

So the whole crowd waiting outside left to go elsewhere to find something more than just raw oysters for dinner.

Imagine the loss to the restaurant in losing the bulk of their dinner business. Just because they are to cheap to pay a key employ a descent wage. And Id bet the waiters Don't share their tips with the kitchen either. Pretty sure they didn't get much in tips last night either.

Cheers Richard

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by fintstone

No different than playing the lottery. Millions play...And there is always someone out there that gets rich...

Probably would not live in Mom's basement waiting for that to happen. Not much of a strategy for most folks.

Ah... ...but hundreds of thousands of parents across the world encourage their kids to pursue professional sports. NBA, NFL, etc..

I would dare say there are more people making money off YouTube than those that make it to Pro Sports....

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

From just having my son graduate from high school last year, I can tell you that the peer pressure, school pressure, and other parent pressure is to go to college, and work in an office is rediculous. Some parents went so far to say that he wasn't going to a real college when he chose a trade school, (Most likeley mad he wouldn't be indoctrinated to the liberal mindset at 4 year colleges). My son has never been an over achiever in the classroom, but absolutely excells at diesel tech school st UNOH. He is proud of the welding skills he has, and is usually at the top of his class because he WANTS to be there. He is a shy farm boy who doesn't say much, but has a good work ethic that he learned from his parents.

Some of his freinds are already foundering, and dropping out of University, and going to work in the trades.....it isn't for everybody !

It always amazes me how big UNOH has gotten. There are kids from all around the country going there for their diesel program. They must have a really strong program.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by cstreit

Ah... ...but hundreds of thousands of parents across the world encourage their kids to pursue professional sports. NBA, NFL, etc..

I would dare say there are more people making money off YouTube than those that make it to Pro Sports....

YouTube wasn't found when I was making a small side income stream online.

The path to such an income is easiest paved by generosity.

Maybe it is different now then before I was a teenager.

You are giving people something they want or need, that is why you get the traffic.

Some folks seem to think if they just promote enough, just angle enough, but the fundamental is being a hound dog for opportunities to make other's life better.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by fintstone

A six-figure starting salary is pretty impressive. I wouldn't' have expected that with an MBA.

I agree. If you are "college material" and can do well in a degree area that pays well and is in demand, it seems the way to go. Obviously, one does not have to run up a he debt to get a degree.

What if you are college material and at the end of the matriculation rainbow there is no promised land. It depends upon a nations having OPPORTUNITY at the end of that rainbow..in order to reap the Pot O Gold reward. That is why the Brain Drain happened in Britain after the war, the jobs just were not there. So they migrated to the USA for the Pot O Gold MC reward.

What makes you just another entitlement live it up Charlie is that you think you are entitled to having that "opportunity" to make a lot of money. That that lucky circumstance is going to last forever and you can live it up (and you in particular don't even think that you have been living it up, partially because it has been so common place). You can already see that it is fading away.. What has been happening sine 1975 is that the MC has been under pressure and is now almost faded away..except for the illusion of prosperity. People have been using everything they make to make their ends meet..look at the stats. Americans don't save anything and are in debt, not to mention the high paying jobs going away.

It is the great reversion to the mean of human history..a small Robber Baron Class, a smallish MC and the great unwashed mass of working poor. What the fk do ya think that 1% having most of the money is all about?

There is no stopping the inevitably of the change.It has always been a historic inevitably. It is a trajectory of history. It is what you do in the face of the inevitably that helps ameliorate the impact. You can put on a sweater, the USA has chosen not to. It chose Reagan and the credit card instead.

Now what really drives me to keep saying this is my Dad and his experiences... He was selling sandwiches my grandmother made to the guys working in the factories probably before he was 10 years old (1925 Detroit) to make money to help the family...at 12 he sold news papers after school until he was out of HS (1935). He did it on crutches after he had his foot crushed (that caused him pain for the rest of his life). He even hit another kid over the head to protect his corner. All the while he went to school with a passion for chemistry. He went to college during the day and did a shift at Packard as a Tool & Die maker at night (putting his books up on the machine to study) all the while giving money to the family. There was no UAW in 1935, the saying in those days was "To old to work and too young to die." This all happened during the worst Depression this nation ever had. So in those days there was no work no opportunity no matter what and that came from the horses mouth of people who lived through those times. .

That is what you flat out don't know, just how lucky you were (born in an era) to have an opportunity to have something. You think you are entitled to it (a prosperity) and it will go on forever. You base you life upon it, especially when you talk about retirement investments. If it happened once it can happen again. I understand it because I can feel the emotional damage that was done to those people. All you had to do is listen to them talk about it and how that despair scarred them for the rest of their lives. That is why just buying and having a Toaster was some thing special to them.

In one of my forays to the Thrifts I found a spiral bound cook book published by a women's organization in MN in 1985. The title of it was basically is Cooking and Reminiscences of the Great Depression. The contributors shared their experiences and recipes that they used during the Depression. The rational was to share those stories before they were gone. Those stories are full of privation and hardship and how they made it through those days. It is staggering to see the clueless and wanton extravagance of Americans. You think it is the way it is and it will go on forever.

[tabs]

BTW I have a $7.00 Dualit toaster from a Thrift store. I could have bought it on Amazon for $155 or from William Sonoma for $255. So I saved $147. You can not even buy the cheapest made in China Toaster at Walmart for $7.