Do you believe in ghosts ?

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by tabs

You may find that ghosts (spirits of dead people) are part of the natural world. The rational is just outside our realm of comprehension at this time.

Our world and our biology are dominated by the electromagnetic force which we know very well. Everything about brain function is electrochemical, determined by the electromagnetic force (quantum field). There are no missing degrees of freedom in electromagnetic processes to provide a basis for ghosts or souls ( ie missing properties, alternative quantum field interactions, etc.).

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by tabs

You may find that ghosts (spirits of dead people) are part of the natural world. The rational is just outside our realm of comprehension at this time.

Poppycock.

As IROC said, since the first humanoid wondered what fire or lightning was, it was ascribed to the supernatural. It was simply outside the understanding at the time. Through the march of time and understanding things as powerful and overwhelming as a bolt of lightning or a hurricane have been understood by science. Not once has the answer been, "that was supernatural."

Often it is "we need more data" but not once has it been a ghost, extraterrestrial, bigfoot, vampires, wherwolves or magic.

No one claims humans know it all, and likely we never will. But we don't have to accept it is something supernatural or just beyond a rational explanation.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Poppycock.

As IROC said, since the first humanoid wondered what fire or lightning was, it was ascribed to the supernatural. It was simply outside the understanding at the time. Through the march of time and understanding things as powerful and overwhelming as a bolt of lightning or a hurricane have been understood by science. Not once has the answer been, "that was supernatural."

Often it is "we need more data" but not once has it been a ghost, extraterrestrial, bigfoot, vampires, wherwolves or magic.

No one claims humans know it all, and likely we never will. But we don't have to accept it is something supernatural or just beyond a rational explanation.

My theory.

Science tells us that different life forms have varying degrees of senses.

Some see better because they detect wavelengths that others do not.

Some see worse but it does not matter because they can echolocate.

Some have better sense of smell.

Some can sense atmospheric changes.

Some can detect and use the earths magnetic field.

Some can predict earthquakes.

I propose that people have always possessed, and still do, the ability to detect, sense, commune, with entities in another "realm"

Throughout time there has always existed individuals in a group, high priests, shamans, witch doctors, etc... who claimed the ability to commune with spirits, gods.

They existed isolated from each other so their existence was organic. They were the individuals who were most in tune with this sense.

But as technology has evolved we have filled our world with noise that has caused us to dial back or tune out that sense.

It's like your heartbeat, you are not aware of it until it skips a beat because it's background noise you have tuned out.

When my daughter was young she had her "pretend ones". Friends who she would talk to and they would tell her things.

She was adept at detecting when woman were pregnant and with 100% accuracy predicted the sex of each one of them. Sure she had pretty good odds, 50/50 every time but she was always right.

My brother was in for a visit one day, daughter was maybe 4. We are in the backyard in chairs facing each other catching up. My daughter is standing next to me. My brother keeps looking at her, then turning and looking over his shoulder. Eventually he asks me "what is she looking at?" I'm facing that direction which is nothing but the side of the house and reply "I don't know" . She replies, "those people". I ask what people? She replies "those people, they are standing right there."

Freaked my brother out, we went inside.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

This thread got me thinking about my dad's power tools, Bigfoot, and John Edward.

My dad bought a bunch of power tools from a rental store in the 1980's. One was a large drill with a metal brush. Several of these tools had old/ shorted switches that would jam, short, and worked so erratically, I ended up throwing them out. Than d#$m drill with the wire brush wheel would turn on all by itself and easily get locked "on". For no reason it would start up and start running in the garage. With the large metal brush, it was dangerous as all get out.

Not saying the OP's experience wasn't valid, but when that drill would turn on in the middle of the night, it would freak me out. Never considered it possessed though, the switch was just to far gone to work. Even tried fixing it, but couldn't find a switch. Perhaps it was possessed!

The second thought was Bigfoot. Last year, I had the fortunate pleasure of attending the a local Bigfoot convention. I went skeptical, curious, and in a good way, wanting to see evidence, wanting to believe the possibility (in a fun way), but in the end, was turned off by the Bigfoot enthusiast more than impressed. There was a trend where the presenters would bundle Bigfoot and paranormal/ wormhole "portals" space /time and such. Showing me a big undiscovered ape in the woods would be one thing (I for one think it would be pretty cool...but improbable), but the need to explain the ape by the existence of "interdimensional portals" just really lost my interest. Needing a really extreme concept to justify an already extreme concept just really was a buzz kill for me.

Finally, this thread got me thinking of John Edward- psychic tv show host, and how a friend of mine is a huge fan- so I googled "John Edward statistical" in an effort to see how statisticians would analyse his work. I found this link. There were others, I will probably go read them later. Wonder how much that we categorize as "supernatural" would fall under similar worldly statistical explanation.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110607014609/http://dir.salon.com/story/people/feature/2002/06/13/probability/index.html

[IROC]

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

Wonder how much that we categorize as "supernatural" would fall under similar worldy statistical explanation.

Great post, but I wanted to comment on this. I think the answer is exactly what you surmise. Sometimes things are just coincidences. It might seem highly unlikely to some observer, but it is what it is.

I actually made up a "law". My law states that whenever you are driving and slowing down because the light up ahead is red, as soon as you come to a complete stop, the light will turn green. Of course this happens every once in awhile, but if you really looked at the statistics, it's probably rare. The thing of it is, the human mind doesn't see it this way. It remembers the few times that this does occur and dismisses all the times it doesn't. I did a little experiment and told a co-worker about my "law" and he told me months later that I was right! It happens all the time!!!

As I mentioned previously, the human brain has all kinds of ways of tricking itself. People don't have "psychic " powers, for instance. They are playing the game of statistics and coincidence. In fact, with the internet now, "psychics" and mediums are actually googling Facebook data on people and then using this data to make it look like they have psychic powers. I always thought this was interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

[tabs]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

My theory.

Science tells us that different life forms have varying degrees of senses.

Some see better because they detect wavelengths that others do not.

Some see worse but it does not matter because they can echolocate.

Some have better sense of smell.

Some can sense atmospheric changes.

Some can detect and use the earths magnetic field.

Some can predict earthquakes.

I propose that people have always possessed, and still do, the ability to detect, sense, commune, with entities in another "realm"

Throughout time there has always existed individuals in a group, high priests, shamans, witch doctors, etc... who claimed the ability to commune with spirits, gods.

They existed isolated from each other so their existence was organic. They were the individuals who were most in tune with this sense.

But as technology has evolved we have filled our world with noise that has caused us to dial back or tune out that sense.

It's like your heartbeat, you are not aware of it until it skips a beat because it's background noise you have tuned out.

When my daughter was young she had her "pretend ones". Friends who she would talk to and they would tell her things.

She was adept at detecting when woman were pregnant and with 100% accuracy predicted the sex of each one of them. Sure she had pretty good odds, 50/50 every time but she was always right.

My brother was in for a visit one day, daughter was maybe 4. We are in the backyard in chairs facing each other catching up. My daughter is standing next to me. My brother keeps looking at her, then turning and looking over his shoulder. Eventually he asks me "what is she looking at?" I'm facing that direction which is nothing but the side of the house and reply "I don't know" . She replies, "those people". I ask what people? She replies "those people, they are standing right there."

Freaked my brother out, we went inside.

Mostly agree.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

My theory. Science tells us that different life forms have varying degrees of senses.

Some see better because they detect wavelengths that others do not.
Some see worse but it does not matter because they can echolocate.
Some have better sense of smell.
Some can sense atmospheric changes.
Some can detect and use the earths magnetic field.
Some can predict earthquakes.

I propose that people have always possessed, and still do, the ability to detect, sense, commune, with entities in another "realm"

Different life forms have developed these sensory enhancements over the millennia in order to increase their chances for survival...not for contacting the spirit world.

I do think that some humans possess certain abilities to 'sense' things that might be beyond the grasp of the population as a whole. Dowsers supposedly have the ability to detect water beneath the ground, which may be a legacy from our distant past. Being that early humans couldn't survive very long without water, it makes sense that random members of the clan would have the ability to find it in places where it's not readily available above ground. Of course, the need for water applies to modern humans too, but we now rely on technology to get it. Again, this extraordinary ability helped to insure the survival of our ancestors and didn't have anything to do with seeing or sensing ghosts.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by rcooled

Different life forms have developed these sensory enhancements over the millennia in order to increase their chances for survival...not for contacting the spirit world.

I do think that some humans possess certain abilities to 'sense' things that might be beyond the grasp of the population as a whole. Dowsers supposedly have the ability to detect water beneath the ground, which may be a legacy from our distant past. Being that early humans couldn't survive very long without water, it makes sense that random members of the clan would have the ability to find it in places where it's not readily available above ground. Of course, the need for water applies to modern humans too, but we now rely on technology to get it. Again, this extraordinary ability helped to insure the survival of our ancestors and didn't have anything to do with seeing or sensing ghosts.

Makes sense. But consider this. Perhaps our ancestors relied on the knowledge, techniques or wisdom acquired by their deceased ancestors and a few, random members of the clan were able to communicate with the deceased to gain that knowledge. In such a case, sensing ghosts would be a survival tactic. The need for such a sense long ago being replaced by written language.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

This thread got me thinking about my dad's power tools, Bigfoot, and John Edward.

My dad bought a bunch of power tools from a rental store in the 1980's. One was a large drill with a metal brush. Several of these tools had old/ shorted switches that would jam, short, and worked so erratically, I ended up throwing them out. Than d#$m drill with the wire brush wheel would turn on all by itself and easily get locked "on". For no reason it would start up and start running in the garage. With the large metal brush, it was dangerous as all get out.

Not saying the OP's experience wasn't valid, but when that drill would turn on in the middle of the night, it would freak me out. Never considered it possessed though, the switch was just to far gone to work. Even tried fixing it, but couldn't find a switch. Perhaps it was possessed!

Sure... but did the fact that the drill wasn't plugged in bother you a bit?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Sure... but did the fact that the drill wasn't plugged in bother you a bit?

Freddie moved the walker himself while sniffing fumes.

Drill was on it's last leg.

Glass table top, dunno but did he bump it?

Just thoughts.

Not even throwing the smallest stone.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by rcooled

Different life forms have developed these sensory enhancements over the millennia in order to increase their chances for survival...not for contacting the spirit world.

I do think that some humans possess certain abilities to 'sense' things that might be beyond the grasp of the population as a whole. Dowsers supposedly have the ability to detect water beneath the ground, which may be a legacy from our distant past. Being that early humans couldn't survive very long without water, it makes sense that random members of the clan would have the ability to find it in places where it's not readily available above ground. Of course, the need for water applies to modern humans too, but we now rely on technology to get it. Again, this extraordinary ability helped to insure the survival of our ancestors and didn't have anything to do with seeing or sensing ghosts.

That all assumes that ghosts don't provide a survival benefit.

How do we know that "gut feeling" of impending doom people get that convinces them to not get on that plane that ends up crashing is not some friendly spirit whispering in their ear, "dude, just don't"?

We don't know that it is that, but we also don't know it's not that.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Makes sense. But consider this. Perhaps our ancestors relied on the knowledge, techniques or wisdom acquired by their deceased ancestors and a few, random members of the clan were able to communicate with the deceased to gain that knowledge. In such a case, sensing ghosts would be a survival tactic. The need for such a sense long ago being replaced by written language.

There ya go.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

Makes sense. But consider this. Perhaps our ancestors relied on the knowledge, techniques or wisdom acquired by their deceased ancestors and a few, random members of the clan were able to communicate with the deceased to gain that knowledge. In such a case, sensing ghosts would be a survival tactic. The need for such a sense long ago being replaced by written language.

There is a thing known as collective memory which is a repository of knowledge that we each have that was built over the millennia. There are common sentiments that are universal among all men. So we do have access to our honorable ancestors knowledge.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Poppycock.

As IROC said, since the first humanoid wondered what fire or lightning was, it was ascribed to the supernatural. It was simply outside the understanding at the time. Through the march of time and understanding things as powerful and overwhelming as a bolt of lightning or a hurricane have been understood by science. Not once has the answer been, "that was supernatural."

Often it is "we need more data" but not once has it been a ghost, extraterrestrial, bigfoot, vampires, wherwolves or magic.

No one claims humans know it all, and likely we never will. But we don't have to accept it is something supernatural or just beyond a rational explanation.

So you are saying your forebearers were stupid for believing in ghosts werewolves vampires and what not? Well perhaps from your lack of discernment the berry has indeed not fallen very far from that tree.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Sure... but did the fact that the drill wasn't plugged in bother you a bit?

No, when I went down to see what the noise was, I was too busy swatting at the apparition of the dead lady hanging from the rafters to notice.


As an aside, it was running under 912 we were restoring at the time. Perhaps it was possessed. One time, the switch stuck on, and the wire wheel wrapped around my dad's jacket and it twisted itself right up to his face, at which point the switch shorted off again. This was a powerful industrial size drill, not a regular smaller size. It could have been a mess. After these incidents, it was unplugged religiously. One could argue I am closed minded for not considering that the drill WAS infact possessed, but I am not convinced. Since this one only turned on when plugged in, I feel confident the powers of evil were either A. caught in that specific extension cord (and only able to influence that tool), or B. Satan, Gozer the Gozerian, and his minions are pretty pathetic, as they were ultimately defeated by a teenager simply tossing them into a garbage can.

My bigger consideration is whether or not to go to THIS year's second annual Bigfoot convention. There's another one which includes BBQ (Bigfoot and BBQ). Yummmy.

[cabmandone]

I checked out on this thread a few pages back. Did we find out who the mad pooper is? I don't care about the ghost.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by tabs

There is a thing known as collective memory which is a repository of knowledge that we each have that was built over the millennia. There are common sentiments that are universal among all men. So we do have access to our honorable ancestors knowledge.

If you are referring to the concept of a collective unconscious first espoused by Carl Jung, keep in mind he was, by his own admission, a neurotic who believed in ghosts:

When Jung was six months old, his father was appointed to a more prosperous parish in Laufen, but the tension between his parents was growing. Emilie Jung was an eccentric and depressed woman; she spent considerable time in her bedroom where she said that spirits visited her at night.[8] Although she was normal during the day, Jung recalled that at night his mother became strange and mysterious. He reported that one night he saw a faintly luminous and indefinite figure coming from her room with a head detached from the neck and floating in the air in front of the body. Jung had a better relationship with his father.[8]

[Rednine11]

Originally Posted by LEAKYSEALS951

This thread got me thinking about my dad's power tools, Bigfoot, and John Edward.

My dad bought a bunch of power tools from a rental store in the 1980's. One was a large drill with a metal brush. Several of these tools had old/ shorted switches that would jam, short, and worked so erratically, I ended up throwing them out. Than d#$m drill with the wire brush wheel would turn on all by itself and easily get locked "on". For no reason it would start up and start running in the garage. With the large metal brush, it was dangerous as all get out.

Not saying the OP's experience wasn't valid, but when that drill would turn on in the middle of the night, it would freak me out. Never considered it possessed though, the switch was just to far gone to work. Even tried fixing it, but couldn't find a switch. Perhaps it was possessed!

The second thought was Bigfoot. Last year, I had the fortunate pleasure of attending the a local Bigfoot convention. I went skeptical, curious, and in a good way, wanting to see evidence, wanting to believe the possibility (in a fun way), but in the end, was turned off by the Bigfoot enthusiast more than impressed. There was a trend where the presenters would bundle Bigfoot and paranormal/ wormhole "portals" space /time and such. Showing me a big undiscovered ape in the woods would be one thing (I for one think it would be pretty cool...but improbable), but the need to explain the ape by the existence of "interdimensional portals" just really lost my interest. Needing a really extreme concept to justify an already extreme concept just really was a buzz kill for me.

Finally, this thread got me thinking of John Edward- psychic tv show host, and how a friend of mine is a huge fan- so I googled "John Edward statistical" in an effort to see how statisticians would analyse his work. I found this link. There were others, I will probably go read them later. Wonder how much that we categorize as "supernatural" would fall under similar worldly statistical explanation.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110607014609/http://dir.salon.com/story/people/feature/2002/06/13/probability/index.html

May I please ask what research organization spoke of a relationship between Bigfoot and interdimensional portals? I have even read crap like people getting "zapped" and all kinds of crap like being put into a trance... Its this kind of nonsense that makes everyone write it off as a hoax.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by tabs

So you are saying your forebearers were stupid for believing in ghosts werewolves vampires and what not? Well perhaps from your lack of discernment the berry has indeed not fallen very far from that tree.

They were not stupid, just ignorant of any science. They did learn, and understood the world has no vampires, witches flying around on brooms, except "make believe" stories like camp fire scary stories.

Then they learned about Occam's razor. In explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Thunder is the atmosphere slamming back together, not giants up in the clouds bowling, or Thor slamming his hammer against something.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

If you are referring to the concept of a collective unconscious first espoused by Carl Jung, keep in mind he was, by his own admission, a neurotic who believed in ghosts:

When Jung was six months old, his father was appointed to a more prosperous parish in Laufen, but the tension between his parents was growing. Emilie Jung was an eccentric and depressed woman; she spent considerable time in her bedroom where she said that spirits visited her at night.[8] Although she was normal during the day, Jung recalled that at night his mother became strange and mysterious. He reported that one night he saw a faintly luminous and indefinite figure coming from her room with a head detached from the neck and floating in the air in front of the body. Jung had a better relationship with his father.[8]

Independent of Jung I have come to the conclusion that there is a Collective memory..