All Things Aviation Related

[gwood]

Avoids all those pesky certification costs.

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by svandamme

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/got-rudder/

Its written in many books that by topgun CO and others that they stomp the rudder if they quickly need to roll out of something. Like Guns Defence.
Because it is faster to roll and does not cause adverse yaw, somethign that has been causing trouble to pilots since the F100



Rudders to roll, aileron to compensate for the yaw.

I'm not making it up you know

Coming from a background of 37 years of being a certificated fixed wing pilot and 1500 hours of flight instruction given, along with 31 years flying for the airlines...


To your highlighted comment: the opposite, actually. Ailerons to initiate roll, rudder to compensate for the adverse yaw created by the ailerons (in very simple terms).

Using rudder to assist in rolling an airplane is something that has been used for as long as ailerons and rudders have been used, which is nearly as long as powered flight. Many much older aircraft - think WW1 biplanes for example - had very ineffective ailerons that did little more than cause the adverse yaw you mentioned earlier, yet had very powerful rudders; so in the early days of fixed wing aviation, turns were usually led by the rudder.

With that said, however, for a very long time now adverse yaw has been significantly engineered out so that ailerons have been the primary roll control, with a touch of simultaneous coordinated rudder to prevent the small amount of adverse yaw remaining in many designs.

Long wingspan gliders still suffer from significant adverse yaw, however, so they are still handled in a more old-school very rudder centric way.

Anyway, in the world of large transport jets we use the rudder very little in normal operations throughout the flight envelope, from very low speeds to very high speeds. The ailerons are the primary roll controls in our airplanes.

I have no experience in fighters, so I asked a couple of fighter pilot friends the question of rudder vs aileron use in their airplanes. The response I got from one is that in F-18's and F-5's the ailerons are primary for roll control. In the case of the very basic F-5's the rudders were also very effective at increasing the roll rate (something you alluded to in your comment about "stomping rudder" to quickly roll out of a turn). The other guy, who was a Top Gun instructor on the F-14’s at Miramar during the “Top Gun” movie days said “Ailerons are used at high speeds almost exclusively because they produce the best response,ie. rapid roll with minimum yaw, but at high AOA, swept wing jets tend to roll better with rudder (ruddering of the whole outside wing forward produces more roll moment than just an aileron out on the end at low speeds and high AOA, not to mention no adverse yaw). It’s not to say that rudder at high speed won’t produce a rapid roll - it will(!!) - but control would be an issue.”

As far as adverse yaw in fighters, the first guy I mentioned said "we never thought about adverse yaw until in slow flight".

Both of these guys are former Miramar Top Gun instructor pilots, the first guy mentioned being more recent, so they both definitely know their stuff with regard to fighters, both older and newer.

You mentioned the F-100. Yes, that airplane was infamous for the strong adverse yaw created by the ailerons in very high AOA flight. But it was the first supersonic fighter - first flown in 1953 - and had a 45 degree wing sweep (which creates many aerodynamic issues in and of itself) and so it had many dangerous tendencies that were later engineered out in the newer designs that followed. In that airplane pilots learned to keep the ailerons neutral and roll with rudder during high AOA flight, for their own self preservation.

The L-29 Delfin is a straight wing Czech military trainer introduced in 1961 and does not have the anywhere near the same degree of adverse yaw issues as the 45 degree wing sweep F-100 had.

There is a phenomenon in jets called crossover speed, which is a high AOA, low speed regime in which the ailerons fail to overcome the rolling force created by full rudder deflection. In essence, the rudders become the primary roll control below crossover speed. But this happens at very low speed and high AOA. Fighter pilots can often get down into this realm and use their rudders to continue to maneuver the aircraft as their ailerons become less effective at high AOA and low speed.

As for the guy who crashed, g-LOC seems to be the consensus right now. Pure speculation, of course. R.I.P. to that guy.


L-29



F-100

[Brown747]

Another Cirrus chute save.

In cruise from Louisville to Anchorage a couple nights ago we heard this guy talking to MSP center.
Low oil pressure.. center gave him a vector to an airport 14 miles away but apparently the engine quit and he went to the chute. Before sunrise and quite dark at the time. The field looks like he could have made an emergency landing but in the dark the chute was probably the best choice. Pilot and 2 passengers walked away.

[pavulon]

A little daylight and that Cirrus would have been able to land on miles and miles of empty roads, empty pastures or cut alfalfa fields in Lake County, SD. Bummer.

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by Brown747

Another Cirrus chute save.

In cruise from Louisville to Anchorage a couple nights ago we heard this guy talking to MSP center.
Low oil pressure.. center gave him a vector to an airport 14 miles away but apparently the engine quit and he went to the chute. Before sunrise and quite dark at the time. The field looks like he could have made an emergency landing but in the dark the chute was probably the best choice. Pilot and 2 passengers walked away.

Yeah. We lost a good guy, 30 y/o Pennsylvania dude(from a conservative Lancaster county bacground) in a Cherokee 6 in a night incident here last weekend, lost oil pressure, somehow descended from 6k to 3k for unknown reasons, and couldn't coast to the nearest real airport (cho). Went down in rugged terrain just east of the BRP. The atc tapes are chilling. Had he had Foreflight running he would have made a highway, maybe. RIP pilot.
Bottom line-don't fly at night near terrain. His nearest alternate was over the ridge, and he couldn't do that.

[rsrguy]

Suks.... don't fly at night sel unless it’s a turbine.

[bugstrider]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bugstrider]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bugstrider]

[bugstrider]

Originally Posted by greglepore

Yeah. We lost a good guy, 30 y/o Pennsylvania dude(from a conservative Lancaster county bacground) in a Cherokee 6 in a night incident here last weekend, lost oil pressure, somehow descended from 6k to 3k for unknown reasons, and couldn't coast to the nearest real airport (cho). Went down in rugged terrain just east of the BRP. The atc tapes are chilling. Had he had Foreflight running he would have made a highway, maybe. RIP pilot.
Bottom line-don't fly at night near terrain. His nearest alternate was over the ridge, and he couldn't do that.

Yeah, nite flights over terrain are dicey. When I would commute in our C-150, half of my flight was always over terrain in the dark. On my day leg, I was always scanning for places to land in an emergency at night. Still, doesn’t make it comfortable to think about inflight emergencies. As they say, “It’s not IF, it’s WHEN” it will happen. The saving grace was that in the 150, 40 degrees of flaps and such a slow speed, your chances of surviving are increased by a couple of tics. The ever changing glide ring in ForFlight helps dramatically.

Years ago, here at Placerville the broker sold a 210. It was on its way home when there was a engine stoppage(fuel) at night. When the guy touched down, gear up, he skipped off of the only large pond for miles. Skipped across the surface and stuck on the far bank. Minimal metal damage and walked away. Sometimes you have luck when it’s needed.

RIP to the brother aviator who was lost in the Cherokee-6.


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[greglepore]

The guy in the 6, it turns out, had bought it that same day and was ferrying home. So night, unfamiliar a/c and no oil pressure. Sounds like fullish tanks as well, 70gal or so and one heck of a fire after impact.

[Heel n Toe]

[fanaudical]

[Evans, Marv]

Originally Posted by fanaudical

When I worked in fire control in the Sierras, the pilots that dropped us off would occassionally have to do that, but their rotor blades would be cuting the tops off of weeds. We'd get in & out of the chopper with our equipment gingerly.

[Racerbvd]

[Sooner or later]

I have a ride in this on Saturday. It will be my 5th WW2 era plane ride.

[svandamme]

jealous now

had a flight planned and paid with Robin Old's SCAT

1st time Covid
2nd time the Bugger ate its supercharger just the weekend before, metal in the oil
tear down
NO GO and refund

since then the owner has not been considering new flights

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Sad day

https://www.airlive.net/roll-out-of-the-last-boeing-747-ever-built/

[Brown747]

Pacific sunrise

[Racerbvd]