Anyone complete a 80% lower?

[unclebilly]

I'm wondering how successful this has been for those who have undertaken completing an 80% lower.

[wdfifteen]

I'm sure this means something to someone.

[crustychief]

It was easy with a router. just go slow.

[masraum]

OK, I'll bite, what the hell are you talking about?

Nevermind, google to the rescue.

It's a spoon thing

https://info.5dtactical.com/2016/08/03/router-guide-for-finishing-80-lower-receivers/

[Jeff Higgins]

I have no interest in these things, so i have never finished one myself. I did, however, observe a few shooting buddies as they collectively went through their "group build party". It was fascinating to watch, since I'm of the engineer/machinist/mechanic persuasion myself.

There were half a dozen guys who all bought a different mix of 80% lowers and the parts required to finish them. With one experienced hobby level machinist, a vertical mill, and a drill press, they were all completely successful. Each build had its own parts-based nuances, its own areas of added attention, but nothing these guys couldn't figure out.

I think with what I think I know about you, your background, skills, and general wherewithal, you will have no trouble whatsoever. I'll think you will get a kick out of going through the process, and you will wind up with a far above average product when you are finished. In other words, you gots the smarts, you gots the skills, you will have no trouble whatsoever.

[Arizona_928]

AKM is easier imho. "Drill baby drill" trunnion holes, and rivet the damn thing up.
Scarcity of anything other than romanian kits that are cost effective has dried up. I don't even bother anymore... In fact I sent out my ddr kit to be built for me as I got a good deal through a local builder...
I think the 1911 80's are the next diy build. they're soo simple they're build by hand in the third world countries, and shipped here.

That said I did pick up a cetme c parts kit from apex for black friday. I should have bought two so that it would have been economical to build more than 1. We'll see

[sc_rufctr]

Living under the Aussie gun laws I find the idea of completing your own firearm beyond amazing.

If I could I would!

[Jim Bremner]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Living under the Aussie gun laws I find the idea of completing your own firearm beyond amazing.

If I could I would!

There are other 2A things that home builders make that can't be seen by the cops. In Canada there was an out of work machinist building full auto Guns for fun and income.

I'll see if I can dig up a web page of a gattiling gun build

[911boost]

I agree on the AK, built a 74 from a Bulgarian kit. Have a few more unfinished kits still that I have had for a long time.

[HardDrive]

....or I could walk into a store, and buy a 100% lower....thats attached to a bunch of other parts.....collectively known as a Sig Sauer M400...

What is the point here? Having a gun with no serial #s?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

....or I could walk into a store, and buy a 100% lower....thats attached to a bunch of other parts.....collectively known as a Sig Sauer M400...

What is the point here? Having a gun with no serial #s?

I think that must be part of the appeal. Owning a gun that is not on any government list. With the millions upon millions of had guns in this country that are not registered at all, it can't be that hard to find one, but what the heck do I know about it.

I can also see the fun of building a precision machine that becomes a functional gun. I always wonder, what happens when the cops come across a gun with no serial numbers. I am sure they come across old guns that were never registered to anyone. All those guns would show is what store sold it somewhere in the USA.

One of my friends has a collection of guns that his granddad started, his dad added to, and now he has added to it. He has one pristine 1911 from an early production run that his grandfather bought new in the box and put in storage. It is over 100 years old and likely worth a lot. I admit, I lusted after it but it is more likely I would sell my 1985 911 than he sell that 1911.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

....or I could walk into a store, and buy a 100% lower....thats attached to a bunch of other parts.....collectively known as a Sig Sauer M400...

What is the point here? Having a gun with no serial #s?

Are you a store bought guy, or DIY?

It's more than that. Ar15 builds is child play compared to other kits.
It's pride in what you do, and that you can make it by hand in your home.
If you ever heard of the phrase. Built not bought.

Do you buy your pies at the store, or do you make them from scratch... (Same argument)

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I am sure they come across old guns that were never registered to anyone.

Not a single firearm of any kind in Washington state is registered to anyone. There is no mechanism in place with which to do so, no law in place under which we are compelled to do so. I believe that is the case in the vast majority of other states as well. As a matter of fact, I'm not aware of any registration requirements anywhere here in the United States.

Every attempt to impose any sort of a registration scheme has been met with furious resistance. History has shown that it is pretty axiomatic that "registration leads to confiscation". There is absolutely no reason for our government to maintain a list of who owns what, beyond that one, anyway.

Which, in the end, has always left me wondering about the appeal of a gun with no serial number. I understand the appeal of making a gun from a kit, and having something personalized at that level. I understand the appeal of that kind of work, the challenge involved. Hell, I have half a dozen rifles, one shotgun, and one pistol that I have built from kits. All muzzle loaders, though. It's kind of fun. I can see someone having that same fun with a more modern rifle.

[GH85Carrera]

Oklahoma has no gun registration either. I just sorta assumed that when a new gun is sold the serial number is registered with the ATF for that store, and sale date.

Do the FFL license holders register the serial number of guns the sell? Even if not the name of the purchaser.

I see the cop shows that always "run the serial number" and come back with names and past history. Of course most of those are set in NYC or LA and Chicago. Not in Slapout, OK.

[71T Targa]

IF I were to build one it would probably be an easy, but very satisfying project. Yes, you can get most of the satisfaction without doing the 80% part but it does add that next level of DIY.

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/if-i-were-going-to-build-my-own-ar.264312/unread

[Arizona_928]

Gun registration is a state thing.

As for ffl stuff. You can make it with the intent being not for resell. But can sell at a later date. Confusing atf verbiage. As for the log. It needs a serial number to be entered into the books. Paper trail is all it is. Not very good one as atf will have to directly audit your books to see where it came from. Needle in the hay sack.

That's why they call them ghost guns. Especially face to face transfers with no paper trail.

[911boost]

CO does not register either.

I enjoyed the hands on process of the build, taking the time to tear apart the cut up “kit”, then clean it, test fit and assemble.

The new receivers do have a SN#. I could have gotten flat or not finished ones, but the idea was to build them ourselves, not try and hide anything.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Oklahoma has no gun registration either. I just sorta assumed that when a new gun is sold the serial number is registered with the ATF for that store, and sale date.

Do the FFL license holders register the serial number of guns the sell? Even if not the name of the purchaser.

I see the cop shows that always "run the serial number" and come back with names and past history. Of course most of those are set in NYC or LA and Chicago. Not in Slapout, OK.

My understanding is that when a store sells a gun, they do a bunch of paperwork, and they have to hang onto that paperwork, but the paperwork never gets sent to any govt groups. It basically sits in a file of some sort for the period of time that they are required to keep it. I could be wrong or things could have changed.

According to the Internet (so it must be true):
https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/

Generally speaking for the majority of American gun owners there is no system, database, or registry that ties us to any of our firearms. Even the Brady Act that created the background check system requires that the records of each background check be destroyed within 24 hours.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA) is a United States federal law that revised many provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968. As such, FOPA makes it illegal for the national government or any state in the country to keep any sort of database or registry that ties firearms directly to their owner. The exact wording of the provision is as follows:

No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

A few things here are worth noting. First notice the use of the word “after” in the first sentence. Any law that existed prior to the passing of FOPA, that required guns be registered, can still exist and be legally enforced.

Second, don't forget that just because the law says something is illegal doesn't mean it isn't being done or that there is any sort of a loophole. In New York City for example, the NYPD has a record of the manufacturer, model, serial number and caliber of every firearm (handgun and long arms too). You need to have a registration certificate on your person for every long arm in addition to needing a “Permit to Possess Rifles or Shotguns In New York City” (which are limited to 5 rounds among other restrictions). Other municipalities also have a track record of ignoring the Federal Firearm Owner's Protection Act.
Local Jurisdictions that Register Guns:
States that Require Registration of All Firearms

District of Columbia
Hawaii

States that Require Registration of Handguns

New York

States that Require New Residents to Report Their Firearms

California
Maryland (handguns and assault weapons)

States that Require Registration of Pre-Ban “Assault Weapons” and/or 50 Caliber Rifles

California
Connecticut
Hawaii
Maryland
New Jersey
New York

Despite FOPA There Are Some Limited Government Gun Databases

In addition to the local authorities who may disregard the local law we also know that the ATF keeps at least 5 databases of specific firearms and their owners to include:

are guns registered government databaseMultiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (as of 2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 – a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address – increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.
Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere. Reported as 34,807 in 2010.
Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception. This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.
Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form – in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968.
Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010. Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional). Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Oklahoma has no gun registration either. I just sorta assumed that when a new gun is sold the serial number is registered with the ATF for that store, and sale date.

Do the FFL license holders register the serial number of guns the sell? Even if not the name of the purchaser.

I see the cop shows that always "run the serial number" and come back with names and past history. Of course most of those are set in NYC or LA and Chicago. Not in Slapout, OK.

It is my understanding (and I realize I could be completely wrong) that there is no permanent record kept of the sale. I know that, by law, all records of the NICS check are to be destroyed after approval.

It may very well be, as you are guessing, that there is a record of the "sold by" but not the "sold to". I honestly don't know. Good question, though. I've just never concerned myself with it. Many of my guns, due to their age, are bought from private parties, so in that case, I know darn good and well there is no record. Hmm... maybe one of our FFL's can clear this up for us.

[Eric at Pelican Parts]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

It is my understanding (and I realize I could be completely wrong) that there is no permanent record kept of the sale. I know that, by law, all records of the NICS check are to be destroyed after approval.

It may very well be, as you are guessing, that there is a record of the "sold by" but not the "sold to". I honestly don't know. Good question, though. I've just never concerned myself with it. Many of my guns, due to their age, are bought from private parties, so in that case, I know darn good and well there is no record. Hmm... maybe one of our FFL's can clear this up for us.

There actually is a record kept. We're required to keep a "bound book", or electronic version now (so much easier than keeping paperwork). Any time we receive new spoons from distributors or mfg's directly, we acquire them. When we sell, we disposition them to the other FFL's, or do the 4473. I think we have to keep the bound book until we close our doors, then it probably goes to the ATF? 4473's I think the rule is that we still have to keep them on hand for 20 years, but after that they can be legally destroyed.

We had a case a few years ago where someone bought many firearms from many stores and had them all shipped to his local FFL. He committed credit card fraud to purchase them. Police had to call the mfg's of the spoons and then each distributor/store it went through to follow the trail.