Chloroquine?

[tadd]

Here is the link to the actual paper:
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf

So 92% of the 80 patients they treated had a low NEWS score, which they define 0-4 (medium is 5-6, high is 7 or greater). The bulk of the patients were not that sick.

Yet at completion of the drug regimen from the paper:

“The majority (65/80, 81.3%) of patients had favourable outcome and were discharged from our unit at the time of writing with low NEWS scores (61/65, 93.8%).”

Thus only 81% had low NEWS scores. That’s a smaller number that what came in...which the paper states were treated a week after first symptoms.

SO, that’s two weeks from symptoms to better...the normal course of the illness.

It is going to be damn hard to quantity the drugs efficacy for those who will get better anyway.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Last I checked, COVID isn't safe either. It should be an option for the doctor and the patient to make.

That's the key. If HCQ works in specific, controlled instances, that's great, but creating a public uproar over any drug like this is almost certain to result in black market trading and self-medicating. And that's my key concern here. That and the market settling on a drug that may not be as effective as others aimed specifically at CV and currently in trial phase.

[Chocaholic]

Read recently they’re thinking COVID is interfering with RBC’s (hemoglobin) ability to carry O2. Releasing free iron into the bloodstream is what’s damaging lungs, not the virus. Probably missing some details (there’s actually a very good write up over on PARF).

This means that ventilators are doing more damage than good. Treating a disease that doesn’t exist while ignoring the one that does. Would explain the terrible death rate of anyone that gets on a vent. Also explains why HCQ is working.

Meanwhile the world is rushing to build ventilators. Notice Boris Johnson is getting O2 only...no ventilator. Wonder why.

[tadd]

Choc:
Read that other post. A cite would be nice, along with some data.

Serium iron in a healthy person is 50-170 micrograms/dL. What is the serium iron in a ICU COVID patient?

That post is complete rubbish.

At LEAST the new French paper on HQC has real numbers in it. That you can discuss.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by techweenie

That's the key. If HCQ works in specific, controlled instances, that's great, but creating a public uproar over any drug like this is almost certain to result in black market trading and self-medicating. And that's my key concern here. That and the market settling on a drug that may not be as effective as others aimed specifically at CV and currently in trial phase.

Just because there are wacka-doodles out there who will abuse the drug doesn't mean we should hide its benefits (or worse prevent people from having the right to have access to it).

Dihydrogen monoxide when taken in excessive amounts kills most people too.

[john70t]

I've read a 'rumor' that the virus affects the bonding of O2 with RBC.
It breaks and the body basically gets iron poisoning.
(but this could be totally wrong)

Thus ventilators have little effect, per the seeming lack of success so far.
idk. It wouldn't be the first time big medicine has been stuck on stupid.

So oxygen and some type of iron bonding drugs..not just ventilators..might be the key.

[pmax]

https://time.com/5816874/italy-coronavirus-patients-treating-home/

[Aurel]

Here is a site that aggregates updates on HCQ:

https://www.covidtrial.io/

[tadd]

Aurel:
Do you read this stuff before you put it up?

The first two bios on who’s behind the site are a lawyer that has run a company that looks at what diseases HCQ can be used for and the other is the lead Dr of the French paper.

Bias much?

Honestly, what are y’all wanting? The FDA has given approval for compassionate use AND off label use. On top of that the government has procured large quantities of HCQ both through rapid contract and donation.

If you want HCQ you can be treated with HCQ.

All I want to see is some solid studies before it’s forced on me. Too much to ask?

[Aurel]

Originally Posted by tadd

Aurel:
Do you read this stuff before you put it up?

The first two bios on who’s behind the site are a lawyer that has run a company that looks at what diseases HCQ can be used for and the other is the lead Dr of the French paper.

Bias much?

Honestly, what are y’all wanting? The FDA has given approval for compassionate use AND off label use. On top of that the government has procured large quantities of HCQ both through rapid contract and donation.

If you want HCQ you can be treated with HCQ.

All I want to see is some solid studies before it’s forced on me. Too much to ask?

Would you rather have a vaccine forced on you? Because that will take much longer, and may be a crapshot like the flu vaccine. I am still excited about HCQ and like to gather as much info as possible on it in the thread. Have no idea why this would bother you. And when more solid studies become available, will be happy to read them as well.

[tadd]

It’s not like people take the flu vaccine. Less than 50% do.

Vaccines are a unique beast, as it’s the only med that is given to a healthy person, so it had best be safe! Hopefully we aren’t stupid enough to rush it. Rotavirus vaccine took 20 years cause early attempts would actually give a worse response to the wild type exposure than no vaccine at all.

What bothers me are some what less than rigorous studies being presented as solid proof.

Like others have said, HCQ is generic and dirt cheap to make. So there is no money in it. However there is ‘fame’ to be made. First Dr that comes up with something will have their career made.

[jyl]

Latest trial data. 440 randomized trial underway in Brazil, with control, high dose and low dose arms. They had to halt the high dose arm because of adverse effects (increased deaths) and no indication of enough efficacy to justify the AE.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.07.20056424v1

So far, I’ve seen properly randomized trials in which the drug has no significant efficacy advantage over control, observational/anecdotal reports w/o control arms where the drug was described as having efficacy but the clinical outcomes don’t look remarkable, and now this negative safety data.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Chocaholic

...

Meanwhile the world is rushing to build ventilators. Notice Boris Johnson is getting O2 only...no ventilator. Wonder why.

Different stages. If you are at a critical stage where you can't breath for yourself, a ventilator does the work for you.

If you can breath for yourself, but your lungs have become inefficient at absorbing enough oxygen from regular air, then providing more oxygen rich air helps you keep your blood oxygen level up.

If boris is just getting oxygen and not a ventilator, that's a good sign that he is more alive than dead.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by jyl

Latest trial data. 440 randomized trial underway in Brazil, with control, high dose and low dose arms. They had to halt the high dose arm because of adverse effects (increased deaths) and no indication of enough efficacy to justify the AE.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.07.20056424v1

Yeah, stuff can kill you taken in excessive quantities, even water for example.

"https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.07.20056424v1
Eligible participants were allocated to receive orally or via nasogastric tube high dose CQ (600mg CQ twice daily for 10 days or total dose 12g); or low dose CQ (450mg for 5 days, twice daily only on the first day, or total dose 2.7g). In addition, all patients received ceftriaxone and azithromycin."

Here's another study. Note the 2x difference in dosage.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.07.20056424v1.full.pdf
Towards Optimization of Hydroxychloroquine Dosing in Intensive Care Unit COVID-19 Patients
"Patients received 200 mg of oral HCQ, three times daily, as suggested by a recent study [9]. "

[jyl]

Another HCQ study, in France.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.10.20060699v1

Read and draw your own conclusions.

[pmax]

Not sure if it worked.

Rita Wilson and Tom Hanks were two of the first Hollywood stars to reveal publicly that they had tested positive for the coronavirus, sharing their diagnosis over a month ago.
...
Wilson said that as she came down with the disease, she was "very tired, extremely achy, felt uncomfortable, didn't want to be touched," had a fever that reached 102 degrees by day nine, got chills and lost her sense of taste and smell.

Hanks, she said, didn't have as high of a fever and didn't lose his sense of taste and smell.

Wilson added that she was given controversial drug chloroquine, and she said she was not sure if it worked or if it was just time for her fever to break, as that's what happened after she was given the drug. Still, she cautioned that she had "extreme side effects" after taking chloroquine, including being "completely nauseous," having vertigo, and her muscles becoming very weak.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/rita-wilson-coronavirus-battle-extreme-chloroquine-side-effects-1290168

[jyl]

I don’t recall if I mentioned, I spent ten years investing in biotech companies with early stage drugs. I was very good at it, if I do say so. Lots of promising anectodal and observational data, positive animal and in vitro data, great looking data from small randomized trials, enthusiastic management teams talking up their drugs and the scientific rationale, all the same stuff we’re seeing with the various drugs being pitched for Covid.

The hard truth is that none of that means diddly, 95% of drugs with all of those attributes still crashed and burned when the real data came in. And those stocks went down -80% so to succeed in that sort of investing you have to be very disciplined and not get carried away by enthusiasm and desire.

It is kind of appalling to see alleged Covid treatments get pitched from the biggest soapboxes in the world by people who in some cases have less than zero knowledge or experience and wouldn’t last a year investing real money in this kind of minefield.

Read every piece of data on HCQ and other Covid drug candidates with the most skeptical eyes you can possibly muster. 95% of them don’t work.

[jyl]

Another study, from China, they are coming thick and fast now. In a month the role of HCQ in Covid treatment will be a lot clearer.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.10.20060558v1

[cabmandone]

I trust information coming out of China as much as I trust a convicted rapist around my two young daughters.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by john70t

I've read a 'rumor' that the virus affects the bonding of O2 with RBC.
It breaks and the body basically gets iron poisoning.
(but this could be totally wrong)

Thus ventilators have little effect, per the seeming lack of success so far.
idk. It wouldn't be the first time big medicine has been stuck on stupid.

So oxygen and some type of iron bonding drugs..not just ventilators..might be the key.

I wonder if transfusions would help as an adjunctive measure?