Ventilators

[sc_rufctr]

I'm sure you'll work it out

[rusnak]

Americans have this "get it done" mindset. Stop the whining and do it.

[CurtEgerer]

Behind the scene shot of early development last week of equipment to test the ventilators. This is a 3rd party company working for one of the automakers. They're working 24/7 on this and are teaming up with existing ventilator manufacturers to ramp up their production. So while it is a tremendous challenge, they're not exactly reinventing the wheel.

[74-911]

This perhaps explains part of the problem with the ventilator shortage:

Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-u-s-tried-to-build-a-new-fleet-of-ventilators-the-mission-failed/ar-BB11RHeI?ocid=msedgdhp

[sc_rufctr]

[pavulon]

Ventilating people with acute lung issues isn't a straight forward thing. Pressures, flows, volumes, rates, durations, PEEP, timing, curves, triggers... . I'm not optimistic that low tech vents will be much of an answer here.

[Flat Six]

GM is partnering w/Bothell (WA)-based Ventec Life Systems to expand production of Ventec's already-approved ventilators. They (GM/Ventec) expect to produce about 10k ventilators a month.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Ok, since you are perpetuating the absurd spread of "hell, here's a vent" made in some geek's shop, answer this.

When the patient takes a breath that is out of sync with the homemade vent, what happens then?

Here's another, what if the patient just holds their breath and refuses the vent's action?

Or what if the patient's SO2 or SpO2 gets out of whack? Does Sony's pretty PCB know what to do then?

Anyone?

[1990C4S]

I am stumped. The factory is not qualified for medical builds, they don't have test/validation equipment, etc etc.

I hate to be too negative, but this is not a quick solution. If it is, it's not a safe solution.

However, if I needed a ventilator and the Buick was the only model available, I would hook myself up and hope for the best.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

However, if I needed a ventilator and the Buick was the only model available, I would hook myself up and hope for the best.

Hate being negative as well. But this ventilator discussion needs more knowledge.

I also admire your dedication to self preservation.
While you’re waiting to hook up yourself, here’s a nice diy video.

Don’t give up on the first try, it takes practice.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by 74-911

This perhaps explains part of the problem with the ventilator shortage:

Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-u-s-tried-to-build-a-new-fleet-of-ventilators-the-mission-failed/ar-BB11RHeI?ocid=msedgdhp

From the link:

'Government officials and executives at rival ventilator companies said they suspected that Covidien had acquired Newport to prevent it from building a cheaper product that would undermine Covidien’s profits from its existing ventilator business.'

[93nav]

Yes!!

Originally Posted by rusnak

Americans have this "get it done" mindset. Stop the whining and do it.

For those interested, here are two ventilators. One of the very first widely available ones, and a much more modern one. Note the green one says respirator, but early on the terms ventilator and respirator were both used. Both pics just pulled from the internet.

Note also, that even before this current pandemic there have been feasibility studies of how to design and build basic ventilators by the likes of MIT.







https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Bird

MIT project.

https://e-vent.mit.edu/

MIT project from 2010

https://web.mit.edu/2.75/projects/DMD_2010_Al_Husseini.pdf

[KiwiJohn]

Americans have this "get it done" mindset. Stop the whining and do it.

No racing in Australian Supercars.
Some teams are "Getting it done"
https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/03/31/video-dutton-and-moore-detail-triple-eight-ventilator/

[Mahler9th]

Thanks for posting that video DonDavis.

May be helpful for folks to visualize, and for folks with deeper interest, help them look for additional information and perspective.

I think you may work in the medical device and/or equipment field, perhaps I think as a biomedical engineer employed to, in part maintain various types of equipment used in care setting.

If so, and if you have been at it for a while, you may have had some experience with some of the products that folks in my immediate network and/or I have helped develop and/or commercialize.

First contribution I made we to GE's first microprocessor-controlled vascular imaging system. GE's second whole body CAT scanner (CT/T 9800; around 1980) and a few other CAT scanners, GE's first digital subtraction angiography system, and for example Acuson (now Siemens) Aspen and Sequoia ultrasound systems. Even the Natus infant hearing screening system.

If you were around back in the day you probably knew about pulse oximetery company Nellcor- really got pulse ox going. That company had three founders-- I have worked for two of them in later companies. Nellcor became Nellcor Puritan Bennet and was acquired by Tyco, and I think eventually Medtronic.

In any case, thanks for trying to help folks understand that ventilators can be relatively complex and are definitely used in a pretty challenging way in care settings. Little things can make a difference between life and death.

[Mahler9th]

"This perhaps explains part of the problem with the ventilator shortage:

Thirteen years ago, a group of U.S. public health officials came up with a plan to address what they regarded as one of the medical system’s crucial vulnerabilities: a shortage of ventilators.....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-u-s-tried-to-build-a-new-fleet-of-ventilators-the-mission-failed/ar-BB11RHeI?ocid=msedgdhp"
__________________

It appears that Covidien bought Newport, and Covidien was then acquired by Medtronic. And perhaps Covidien and/or Medtronic could not find good business with the Newport design(s).

I have been in situations similar to that in business in the medical equipment space.

There can be challenging dynamics at the intersections between capitalism, healthcare and public health.

[93nav]

Good on them.

Not all of these, or perhaps even any, of these types of efforts will work out, but at least groups are trying and not standing around saying it cannot be done.

Originally Posted by KiwiJohn

No racing in Australian Supercars.
Some teams are "Getting it done"
https://www.speedcafe.com/2020/03/31/video-dutton-and-moore-detail-triple-eight-ventilator/

[Won]

This manufacturer is relatively local, and we are given opportunities to be away from work to volunteer for final checks and sign-off which will run on 24h shifts for the foreseeable future. I think it's admirable that as a company we're not only trying to help with design and engineering of new equipment ourselves, but also allowing staff to be re-deployed to where they can be utilised better, even if that's an external company.

Admittedly I know f-all about ventilators but their products are actually labelled ventilators so hopefully that satisfies the qualified individuals. This is what we all agreed would be most effective since the beginning: ramping up the production of existing ventilators.

The other 5,000 (of 10,000) units will be a variant of the ES02 ventilator from Penlon in Abingdon, Oxfordshire (above).

I think I'll start another thread called "anything but ventilators" to capture all the other on-going effort, as the misuse of terminology is upsetting some. Various "Project Pitlane" projects would fall under this category, among others.

[Mahler9th]

Great to hear.

If the regs there are similar to what we have, the manufacturer will already have myriad documented and rigorous processes that can be taught to new folks working on key aspects of manufacturing/assembly.

Back when I worked on my first regulated medical equipment development project in the late 70's, we had some of those processes in place in manufacturing.

Regs have evolved a lot since then.

here... I will never forget the sweeping changes brought by Good Manufacturing Process regs in the 90's, and ISO 9000.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

...snip ... May be helpful for folks to visualize, and for folks with deeper interest, help them look for additional information and perspective.

I think you may work in the medical device and/or equipment field, perhaps I think as a biomedical engineer employed to, in part maintain various types of equipment used in care setting.

Bingo.. GE Imaging FE.
Biomed in a VA 4 years before that.

[Jay Auskin]

Originally Posted by Flat Six

GM is partnering w/Bothell (WA)-based Ventec Life Systems to expand production of Ventec's already-approved ventilators. They (GM/Ventec) expect to produce about 10k ventilators a month.

Yep, plus they can be used in the field, which will be useful for all the convention centers turning into hospitals (McCormick Place - Chicago, Cobo Hall - Detroit, etc.). It's cool in the media to poo-poo Detroit these days, but the the engineering and manufacturing talent there is getting it done. Increasing volume from 250/month to 10000 per month in just a couple of months.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/local-business/inside-the-incredibly-challenging-effort-by-gm-and-ventec-to-make-more-ventilators-for-coronavirus-fight/

oh yeah...and surgical masks too...

https://www.gm-trucks.com/the-pictures-tell-the-story-see-the-covid-19-fighting-mask-mfg-operation-gm-has-in-operation/