Anyone here an electrician?

[john70t]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I checked all with a multimeter, then installed the new GFI outlet. I did not push the GFI box back into the wall. With all power on, my multimeter is still showing next to nothing on the wires stabbed into the new GFI outlet.

Glad you solved the problem Rick.
Instead of using a multimeter you need to get this 120V tester combo.
-The pen tester is essential for finding hot wires. Test it in a live outlet first.
-The outlet tester will tell you if polarity is correct. Some have a trip button to test if the GFI is working correctly.


I had some old shop lights with failed crispy electronic ballasts which were converted to 'ballast bypass' bulbs. Now the lights are instant-on, much brighter, and no flicker at sub-zero temps. I'd previously tried all of the 'direct replacement' types...using multiple brands and multiple known good ballasts as well...and many trips to the store...and none of them worked. A waste of time so buying a dozen new fixtures at $40-60/pop or the conversion for $15/pop was a no-brainer choice. Started from scratch with the wiring from the plug outward and figure it out one step at a time. Draw a diagram if needed but it's not that complex. Go slow and make sure every connection is perfect and tight.
(As a caveat to this conversion: The GE brand and some other dim-able ones I saw online use both ends of the bulb and would require the fixture to be wired as such and replaced same-with-same later on. The HD and Menards bulb brands use only end, which meant one bulb pin needed to be hot and the other neutral, with the switch in-line. You will probably want to stick with one style and not rewire again.)

I would also recommend against using the stabbing method. Spend five more minutes and do it right.
The stab method reduces the contact area between the two surfaces and is dependent on the spring blade holding the wire in place when pushing the assembly back into the wall. If the thing ever heats up for instance, the wire could possibly fold out and arc to the box etc if there is loss of retained tension on it.

[Rick Lee]

UPDATE

The pro came over, said I had done everything correctly, and suspected the GFCI was just bad out of the box. He put in a new one. Same problem. Then he said it had to be an open neutral. We went back to the panel, pulled the cover off and, sure enough, there was a burnt and loose wire. He stripped and reconnected it and all was fine. I never would have found that. $150 total.

[MBAtarga]

Glad it is resolved!

[hcoles]

Good. Now I know one more thing to look for.

[Rick Lee]

I should add that our dishwasher was dead when we went to run it Saturday night. It's on the same circuit as the bad GFI box, but I obviously plugged it into an extension cord on a different circuit, one that worked fine for everything else. I replaced the power cord after testing each prong and end for continuity and not getting it. New one made no difference. Mrs. Lee is convinced the GFI blowout killed the dishwasher, but I'm not so sure. Everything else downstream of the GFI box ran fine when plugged into the extension cord on a different circuit.

[john70t]

It may be a task, but get all your appliances separated from your wall outlets.
-Microwaves and garbage disposals create a lot of electric noise for other electronics and draw close to the max 15amps. So do space heaters. A bad motor could fry other expensive things.

-You don't want a vacation home fridge failing because a kitchen counter GFI (which you didn't know was inline upstream) somehow tripped while away.
btdt and cleaned up the black puddle before emptying everything maggoty inside. gag. never want to do that again.

-Overlap circuits by having a live outlet tie in from another room will allow you to fix an overhead light in one room at night and be able to see what you are working on. An extension cord is good to use for lights, not dishwashers, although I do have a 25ft 10 gauge for my 120V MIG welder just in case I need to work in the drive.

-Find outlets by either buying a tracer or plugging in a radio while flipping on the switches. Mark circuits by writing on the back of outlet covers, and get the breaker box diagrammed. Life will be easy after that.

-Double-check the pipe grounds. I had a new water main shutoff installed but recently discovered the bypass wire clamp was not connected on one side. That might cause electrolysis and premature corrosion of the pipes and fixtures. IDK.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Mrs. Lee is convinced the GFI blowout killed the dishwasher, but I'm not so sure.

How about the opposite?

And how did the neutral fail?

There's more stuff to be found.

[Rick Lee]

I think the connection at the panel was just loose from 25 years of use and extreme temperatures. The dishwasher wasn't in use for a day or two before the GFI box failed. It was a cheap, POS dishwasher that lasted seven years and cost next to nothing. So I'm ok with it. Just a pain in the ass that no one has dishwashers in stock unless you want pay over $1000. Anything less has a few weeks delivery time.

[Sooner or later]

I wouldn't worry about the dishwasher. You already married one...

[911 Rod]

Are you saying the old GFI now works fine?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

Are you saying the old GFI now works fine?

I'll bet he nor the electrician tested the original. The sparky found the loose and then not connected neutral and that apparently lit up the new GFCI. The old one is probably in the trash and is likely still good.

AFA as testing a power cord when what it's powering is not running will show no continuity, so that replacement was another exercise in vain. A quirky neutral can play havoc with a circuit board, so all seems well at this point except for the DW.

I see them all the time on CL and newer ones at that. People are constantly remodeling and selling off perfectly good appliances just so the new kitchen has an all matching suite of appliances.

I could give a siht less and have a Wolf range, a Kitchen Aid fridge and GE DW. Plus different brand counter appliances. I buy what works best and used if available.

Kinda like a leased car being sold post lease. You pretty well know any problems have been addressed and you still get a warranty. Win win.

[herr_oberst]

When I worked at the local mom and pop hardware store, every single GFCI that was returned "faulty" that I ever took home worked perfectly. It was a nice little perk. I think I might even have a few left from my time there.

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I think the connection at the panel was just loose from 25 years of use and extreme temperatures. The dishwasher wasn't in use for a day or two before the GFI box failed. It was a cheap, POS dishwasher that lasted seven years and cost next to nothing. So I'm ok with it. Just a pain in the ass that no one has dishwashers in stock unless you want pay over $1000. Anything less has a few weeks delivery time.

Some appliances are getting harder to find due to covid. For awhile, it was vent hoods, dishwashers, MW trim kits and fridges. Now it’s washer and dryers.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

Some appliances are getting harder to find due to covid. For awhile, it was vent hoods, dishwashers, MW trim kits and fridges. Now it’s washer and dryers.

I have been waiting for a Viking 36" stove since December. Delivery date is not mid April. Just got the Bosch dishwasher today, viking hood is coming sometime in March. All Were ordered since December. House if finished. Owner moved back in, with Kitchen complete but no appliances to cook. I jsut don't understand? What's the cause of the freaking hold up?

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by look 171

I have been waiting for a Viking 36" stove since December. Delivery date is not mid April. Just got the Bosch dishwasher today, viking hood is coming sometime in March. All Were ordered since December. House if finished. Owner moved back in, with Kitchen complete but no appliances to cook. I jsut don't understand? What's the cause of the freaking hold up?

My understanding is covid and it’s like whack a mole. At different places, parts suppliers, manufacturing, distribution, etc. someone get covid and they shut down. It passes, then flares up somewhere else in the line to the final destination.

[1990C4S]

There is a serious chip shortage. The problem is serious enough to shut several auto plants for weeks at a time.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I'll bet he nor the electrician tested the original. The sparky found the loose and then not connected neutral and that apparently lit up the new GFCI. The old one is probably in the trash and is likely still good.

FWIW, the old one smelled really bad, like burned up chemicals.

[schwarz633]

Mrs. Lee may be on to something. It is permissible to share a single neutral wire between two circuits as long as those circuits are on different legs of the 120/240. Circuit breakers directly across from each other are on the same leg and and the legs alternate as you go vertically. Typically the circuit breakers for two circuits sharing a neutral would be right next to each other. Those two circuits each see 120 volts until you lose the neutral connection, then the two circuits are in series across 240 volts. If each circuit has an equal load they would still each see 120 volts. However, when the loads are unequal that 240 volts will be split unevenly, which could have subjected the dishwasher electronics to a voltage much higher than 120.

[Rick Lee]

But the dishwasher wasn't in use when the GFI box blew. And days later, when I went to use the dishwasher, wouldn't I have seen something, some kind of power light or sign of life when I went to power it on before it died? It just acted like it was unplugged and the same when I plugged it into a different, working circuit.

[schwarz633]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

But the dishwasher wasn't in use when the GFI box blew. And days later, when I went to use the dishwasher, wouldn't I have seen something, some kind of power light or sign of life when I went to power it on before it died? It just acted like it was unplugged and the same when I plugged it into a different, working circuit.

I don't know this for a fact, but it would seem likely to me that the dishwasher has an electronics board that's powered whenever it's plugged in, running or not. If that were the case, that board could have been subjected to an overvoltage condition when the neutral became disconnected. It's all kind of speculative, I was just giving Mrs. Lee the benefit of the doubt.