Good point!

That’s one of the toughest parts about this business.

The owner assumes the designer has done what’s convenient and protects the designer at the owner’s expense.

The owner turns to the builder to find a more cost effective way. In the frenzied pace that large jobs operate under, this can have catastrophic results.


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Looks like OKC

Just saw some video at ground level. Sure looks like some sort of foundation settlement issue from that view.

You guys that mentioned sinking might be right...

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/2021/06/24/researcher-high-rise-that-collapsed-had-been-sinking-at-alarming-rate/

Update 3 confirmed dead.

Today I learned:



When the Oklahoma City bombing happened, my wife, a nurse, bought a plane ticket and flew there. She pronounced 91 people dead, a medical person had to examine them and pronounce them. She said it was awful. For her to say that, given her experiences in various hospitals, ICU, CCU, Emergency Departments and being first on scene at accidents, well, awful to her is more than I ever want to see.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1624587325.jpg

Wow.

Please thank your wife for me.

Unfortunately it is now 4 confirmed dead and 159 unaccounted for ☹️ . Sad situation for all involved .

Interesting information in the story....

https://news.yahoo.com/collapsed-miami-condo-sinking-earth-181026431.html

And another about the people that lived there....

https://news.yahoo.com/collapsed-florida-building-drew-global-040003955.html


"Argentines Dr. Andres Galfrascoli, his husband, Fabian Nuñez, and their 6-year-old daughter, Sofia, had spent Wednesday night there at an apartment belonging to a friend, Nicolas Fernandez.

Galfrascoli, a Buenos Aires plastic surgeon, and Nuñez, a theater producer and accountant, had come to Florida to get away from a COVID-19 resurgence in Argentina and its strict lockdowns. They had worked hard to adopt Sofia, Fernandez said. “Of all days, they chose the worst to stay there,” Fernandez said. “I hope it’s not the case, but if they die like this, that would be so unfair.”

They weren't the only South Americans missing. Foreign ministries and consulates of four countries said 22 nationals were missing in the collapse: nine from Argentina, six from Paraguay, four from Venezuela and three from Uruguay.

The Paraguayans included Sophia López Moreira — the sister of first lady Silvana Abdo and sister-in-law of President Mario Abdo Benítez — and her family.

Israeli media said the country's consul general in Miami, Maor Elbaz, believes that 20 citizens of that country are missing."

Horrible. I wonder if soil liquefaction triggered the final moments. I read on initial notes from people on the ground that there were issues with massive pool leaks.

A lot of things have come to light about the building in the last 24 hours. Seems to have many factors that may have come into place to create the "prefect storm" causing the collapse. A combination of improper roof loading, possible pool leaks, foundation settlement, possible salt erosion of rebar/tension cables and concrete, and who know what else.

I saw an interview this morning of a family where the mother was in the condo and is missing. The father was out of town. All the kids were grown and to hear them talk about her was so sad.

My gut tells me that when the investigation is over it comes down to soil erosion and rusted structural steel encased in the concrete . The salt air never sleeps it corrodes 24/7 .

OMG. i heard about this earlier and forgot to google it to see pics.

that is wild!! buildings are designed to not catastrophically fail. at least that is the idea. i wonder if there was any precursors? cracks, noises, doors that jam tight, etc.

i wish the area well.

Such a sad story. The folks working that site are very courageous working in those conditions.

I've had friends living in Seattle area condos that failed but with different construction methods and conditions. Luckily they didn't get to the point where the failures were catastrophic. In one friends case the building did have to be demolished and it was less than 25 years old at the time. The litigation between condo association, builder and insurance company lasted years.

I'm amazed to read that the salt air is able to migrate into the concrete that deeply. That's a terrifying reality. Even if 50 souls have been lost to this tragedy, that number is mercifully low compared to the death toll that would have resulted from a fully occupied building.

Really a situation of cracks in the concrete allow water to enter and the rebar may not have proper concrete coverage and it is too close to the surface. One thing leads to another....

It’s the humidity in that air that conducts it so well.


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Modern concrete is lightweight and porous allowing for moisture and salt penetration
-It is usually not sealed externally afterwards, especially on top
-Rebar is often undersized, not welded, is round and does not grip, and doesn't have an anti-oxidant composition such as brass or chromium
-Designers love to create flamboyant looks such as large unsupported balconies and complete walls of uninterrupted glass. (cring)

I wonder what building practices can be upgraded to prevent spalling, such as rubberizers or plasticizers or natural epoxies in the mix which would prevent air penetration.

https://theabeton.com/blogs/news/colosseum
Curiosity got me researching more on Roman concrete and it was said they got stronger over time instead of getting brittle and weak despite all the rains and harsh sun, and that’s because they had cautiously mixed aggregates like volcanic ash, heavy limestone and seawater in the concrete mix that created extremely durable minerals.

My very limited understanding is that high rise buildings are supposed to have multiple fail safes, and not collapse like that even if one of the supporting features fails.

In the Oklahoma City bombing a massive explosion ripped the entire front side and much of the structure off the building. No building is designed to withstand a terrorist with a huge bomb parked just feet from the front of the building.

Imagine that high rise in San Fransisco that is leaning several inches. That has to be a scary place to live, especially now.

Don't want to take away from this thread too much but not too long ago they tore down a newish apartment building a block away from my office here in Seattle.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/9-year-old-belltown-high-rise-too-flawed-to-fix/

That is how it is supposed to be done. When the inspections are timely, and they find flaws too expensive to fix, move everyone out, and rip it down.

Hopefully whoever is responsible for the issues, be it the architect, builder or the contractors, someone made an very expensive mistake. Rather than risk a total collapse or even a partial collapse, tear it down and start over. I bet they do it right next time.

The Empire State Building a building virtually everyone knows and it is 90 years old. It even had a B-25 crash into it in 1945. That is a grand old building. Evidently built when quality was most important not speed or profit for the builder.

Comparing the ESB built in '30(?) to a condo on the beach built in the "80's is like comparing a Sherman tank to Geo Metro. I believe the ESB was built in record time and who knows what kind of profit was made or not.

In addition to lives lost, 130 units, 600k+ each, plus common space, that was an 80+ million dollar building.

After 40 years, I would think management/maintenance played a bigger part than architect/builder.

site is the big factor

sand bars are not good places to build hi-rises

do wonder if this will lower the prices of ocean front buildings local or else where

The lawsuits are flowing already.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/resident-files-class-action-lawsuit-after-florida-condo-collapse-n1272355?cid=sm_npd_ms_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR2DwAWnXOvv WhDiKKb8oIgbU0DRPqUICi983bNwF_NK0Xikr_w92yYvx2M

Living around here has put me off ever living in an apartment again.

All the complexes are stick built.

Massive communities.

Every week there is a complex catching fire.

I'd never sleep.

Empire State Building was i beam and rivets real steel framed
and built on granite solid rock

local condo's are concrete and rebar
built on a sand bar

I think the point was that it was built right to begin with.

gruesome.
i'm going with the roof top "stacking" being the final straw.
perhaps they should have known better. i dunno.

"right" is a relative term. To be cost effective for the condo developer and the residents buying them the buildings are built to code, period. You want to build a to 2x, 3x or 4x the code you get pay for it but good luck selling the units or making a profit.

Why don't they start using a crane to lift clear debris? That seems like the best chance to open up areas to anyone that might still be alive.

^^^ A crane would prob kill anyone still alive...unless it had magnets to lift cement.

URY- AFAIK the Hoover Dam was about the only super project built under-budget and under-estimated time.

Not laying blame here.
It's just another lesson on what went wrong and how to avoid it again.

They will start de-layering debris from the outside inward, starting at the highest point accessible from the perimeter of the collapse footprint. We usually use cranes with slings and grapplers. De-layering starts after the initial void searches are done using K9s cameras and acoustics.

From what I'm hearing, they have already started it.


.

Ground radar? That might be useful.

Ground radar would'nt work well in this situation. It would be extremely hard to manipulate it over that type of debris pile. Two, the images are not sharp enough to discern a human form.


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I saw images that they are working up from the bottom through the underground parking garage too. Scary dangerous work.