Miami condo collapse

[dad911]

This hits close to home and is not surprising. I owned a condo in an association that was denying structural issues, and deferred post tensioning cable repairs for over 10 years. What could have been a sub-million dollar maintenance program turned into an 8+ million dollar job, and there were still board members opposing it. I sent the following out after digging up some old reports, and the board when nuts, called me every name in the book:

a) Why have reserve funds not been maintained?

b) A 2003 report indicated that the post-tension cables in building C needed to be repaired/maintained. Why, almost 10 years later, is there still no maintenance program or fund for this?

c) 2005 Atlantic Engineering Services (AES) reports that "The exposed concrete columns, beams, and slabs have experienced concrete deterioration......The cracking in the garage columns which are fairly protected may be revealing that the concrete has chloride contamination which is accelerating reinforcement corrosion. If chloride and carbonation testing has not been performed on the concrete structure, it need to be performed.... all expansion joints are in poor condition..... "

d) 2009 AES reports "The condition of the concrete at xxxxx Condominiums has dramatically deteriorated from our review and report issued June17, 2005. To my knowledge, none of the recommendations in the report have been implemented."

e) Was chloride and carbonation testing done as recommended in the 2005 report? Why were reserve funds not being budgeted from 2003 or 2005 until today? Why were the repairs and recommendations from 2003 & 2005 reports ignored? This has greatly increased the cost of repair to the owners of this association.

It was not until a balcony actually became unsafe and the local building department threatened to pull the Certificates of Occupancy for the whole building did they act. What the idiots didn't realize, is the word was out on our buildings for years, and values low because of it. My value jumped twice what the special assessment was as soon as the work was done, and I bailed.

[URY914]

[craigster59]

51 people unaccounted for. This could get real ugly.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Wow, that is something I would only expect to see in a strong earthquake or in some third world country.

I bet there will be a LOT of building inspections in Florida starting today. That video is just scary. I can't imagine the terror of hearing the building collapse next to you. I assume the building next door has been evacuated.

There are three more buildings nearby that look exactly the same. I may be wrong, but I believe it is a requirement for condo boards to routinely hire engineers for structural inspections. In our case(above), the reports were buried.

Local inspectors would not step in when they were 'making mistakes' during our concrete repairs. Even when hurricane glass was not being installed per mfg specs. I could only point them out to the engineer/inspector that was hired by the association, and because he worked with the contractor on other sites, he did not want go against them.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by speeder

If only one person died in that, it would be a miracle. Unless it was unoccupied. Sad situation.

The south Florida coast often sees the heaviest occupation between November and April or May. (folks from the North that come down for a warmer winter). So most of those folks would have left by now. Of course, a lot of them may use their condos for things like AirBNB or VRBO during the summer, and there are also some permanent residents.

But yes, if the blurb below is remotely close, that's pretty amazing and lucky.

Originally Posted by URY914

"The collapse has left at least one person dead—though authorities are expecting far more fatalities. A huge rescue operation is underway with at least 35 people pulled alive from the rubble and 12 reported injuries. Some 51 people remain unaccounted for, Miami-Dade County Commissioner Sally Heyman told CNN."

[pwd72s]

Ho-Lee-sheet!

[gordner]

That is nuts, you seriously think something like that could only occur because of an earthquake or similar. Just straight up failing is crazy.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by dad911

There are three more buildings nearby that look exactly the same. I may be wrong, but I believe it is a requirement for condo boards to routinely hire engineers for structural inspections. In our case(above), the reports were buried.

Local inspectors would not step in when they were 'making mistakes' during our concrete repairs. Even when hurricane glass was not being installed per mfg specs. I could only point them out to the engineer/inspector that was hired by the association, and because he worked with the contractor on other sites, he did not want go against them.

Typical of so many things, I will bet there will be a lot of inspections happening now, and a big investigation. More lawsuits than we can imagine, and the sad deaths that could have been prevented.

Imagine living in any building that was built before that one, built by the same builder, and using the same techniques. It is obvious there are lots of similar buildings, and I bet they find a few that are overdue for repairs and maintenance.

There will be endless finger pointing and take a decade or more for any real changes to happen.

[Scott Douglas]

Originally Posted by dad911

... because he worked with the contractor on other sites, he did not want go against them.

That sounds criminal to me.

[URY914]

As dad911 posted above, it's up to the condo board to inspect and repair. FL condo law is a swamp. They have lobbyists in the Capital and the laws are written in the books. Residents got tired of building owners not maintaining the building so it was shifted to the condo boards. You can see how well that is working. Companies that develop them have protected by LLC's.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by URY914

As dad911 posted above, it's up to the condo board to inspect and repair. FL condo law is a swamp. They have lobbyists in the Capital and the laws are written in the books. Residents got tired of building owners not maintaining the building so it was shifted to the condo boards. You can see how well that is working. Companies that develop them have protected by LLC's.

I bet that changes after this disaster is investigated.

With many billions of dollars involved it will be a real challenge.

[URY914]

And I'll have to say that a lot has been learned over the years on design details and products for condos. Buildings built in the '70 and '80 don't use the same design for balconies, handrails and window systems, etc. now as then.

[nota]

local news 24h on this now

99 missing at 2;45 pm one body two in hospt



report that there is a exact twin of the fallen building 3 lots north of the site they are a north/south pair from the same plan and corp built

ocean side fell 40 year old bld undergoing insp and repairs

I have to wonder about value impacts on this common type of condo
esp on a sand bar ocean front as far too many are located

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by nota

esp on a sand bar ocean front as far too many are located

Not that it’s much better but isn’t most of south Florida limestone?


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[wilnj]

Originally Posted by URY914

Companies that develop them have protected by LLC's.

That’s why my previous employer with $14B in annual revenue would not take residential work. Too easy for the developers to vaporize leaving them as the deepest pocket.

Couple that risk with the use of EIFS common in these residential buildings, it was too much to swallow.


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[onewhippedpuppy]

I took an engineering ethics class in school where we studied disasters like the Challenger and the KC Hyatt walkway collapse, and the decisions made leading up to the disaster. I suspect this will eventually be a topic in similar classes.

[CurtEgerer]

What are the 2 bright flashes at the beginning of the collapse video? Maybe power cables being severed but looks too bright for that. Lightning strike? I've seen unbelievable structural damage from lightning. If there was roofing work being done, there are three common collapse occurrences: plugged roof drains causing water ponding (extreme weight), improper storage of new roofing materials/equipment causing localized stress, and fire from torches. Deterioration of concrete may in fact be the cause but a total collapse from that would be somewhat surprising to me. Roof (or other construction) work would be the first thing I'd need to rule in or out. -- retired forensic structural engineer.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Roof (or other construction) work would be the first thing I'd need to rule in or out. -- retired forensic structural engineer.

I bet you have stories.

BTW, save your image as a JPG and re-post. Can't see png's here, at least I can't.

This is fascinating engineering I know nothing about.

[Scott Douglas]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I took an engineering ethics class in school where we studied disasters like the Challenger and the KC Hyatt walkway collapse, and the decisions made leading up to the disaster. I suspect this will eventually be a topic in similar classes.

I suspect it'll be a case study in some law classes too Matt.

[nota]

Originally Posted by wilnj

Not that it’s much better but isn’t most of south Florida limestone?


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limestone is a bit stronger then oolite https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=oolite
we have mostly oolite some sand and limestone you never know til you do a coreboring

preliminary reports say subsidence/erosion led to failing

note late 70's I found a gov benchmark out by about a tenth of a foot
a bit north of that area on the beach in a sidewalk by a mall
the whole beach strip island was sand dunes or mud/mangroves on top of oolite
none of it strong or stable