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-   -   What should consequences be for those that decline the vax? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=1099205)

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 06:28 AM
Thankfully Byron, you aren't one of them. How did your first jab go? Which vaccine did you get?

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Por_sha911 (Post 11416845)
Questions to those who have received the vaccine:
IF you are so sure that the vaccine is safe and is effective, then what does it matter to you if someone doesn't get the vaccine and may get sick? They won't be infecting you.
We don't really care about them, we have been clear about that. But the consequences of their decision may not be limited to just themselves. The longer this circulates the more it mutates raising the possibility that it mutates into a variant that renders all current immunities, whether derived through vaccine or natural exposure, ineffective.

We did not worry about the young because the original strain seemed to be ignoring them. Delta is not, this is what variants do.

Quote:
IF you think that you can still be infected even after you have been vaccinated then why bother being vaccinated?
I'm not really sure why this is even a question when the answer is so obvious, because it greatly reduces the risk of contracting it.

Quote:
IF you are so concerned about the greater public good then why allow risky behavior such as smoking?

IF you are so concerned about the sick taxing our healthcare system then why not punish people who abuse their bodies with alcohol, or unhealthy diets? Aren't they taxing our healthcare system with their heart attacks and siroccos of the liver?
This is just classic whataboutism that has zero to do with the topic at hand. And no, they are not taxing the healthcare system the same way as COVID, not even close. In fact if you care about those peoples access to medical care you would want everyone to get vaccinated so as not to unduly burden the system with something you can prevent and takes 5 minutes of your time, it's selfish.

Quote:
Please put down the virtue signaling and admit that maybe you worry that the vaccine isn't as effective as promised and you are concerned about getting sick?
Any reasonable person is concerned about getting sick. That's not virtue signaling, that's just common ****ing sense.

island911 08-08-2021 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by group911@aol.co (Post 11417077)
"A basic justification for vaccine mandates is that your freedom doesn’t include the freedom to endanger the rest of your community. The principle is a bedrock of democratic philosophy and the American legal tradition, with courts applying it to a variety of contexts including public health."

“You can’t walk around assaulting people just because you feel like it’s an important part of your self-expression,” Nicholas Bagley, a University of Michigan law professor, said in an interview. “And you can’t dump pollutants into a town’s drinking water just because you’d rather not pay for cleanup. By the same token, we require kids to get vaccinated for all sorts of illnesses before they go to public school. Otherwise, their bodies could be used as vectors to harm others.”

The most important legal precedent on vaccines specifically is a 1905 case called Jacobson v. Massachusetts, in which the Supreme Court upheld a state law requiring smallpox vaccination for adults. Just this week, a panel from a federal appeals court cited Jacobson when it upheld, unanimously, a new COVID-19 vaccine requirement for students at Indiana University.
Did you have a nanny as a kid? ...still miss her?

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 06:38 AM
Lots of em. You. How about a dad that taught you to man up? Poor little victim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island911 (Post 11417103)
Did you have a nanny as a kid? ...still miss her?

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 06:41 AM
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=294419094977022

upsscott 08-08-2021 06:54 AM

The EMA says ‘These reports describe suspected side effects in individuals, i.e., medical events observed following the use of a vaccine. The fact that someone has had a medical issue or died after vaccination does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused this.’

‘This may have been caused, for example, by health problems not related to the vaccination. The EU regulatory network continuously monitors EudraVigilance to detect any new safety issues.’
From your link. Nice try.

fintstone 08-08-2021 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsscott (Post 11417132)
The EMA says ‘These reports describe suspected side effects in individuals, i.e., medical events observed following the use of a vaccine. The fact that someone has had a medical issue or died after vaccination does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused this.’

‘This may have been caused, for example, by health problems not related to the vaccination. The EU regulatory network continuously monitors EudraVigilance to detect any new safety issues.’
From your link. Nice try.
Sure sounds like the vaccine is more dangerous than COVID. I would not have expected that. Pretty interesting. Are you trying to talk people out of being vaccinated?

"This may have been caused, for example, by health problems not related to the vaccination."

That could be said about many reported COVID deaths as well. Of course, I can avoid contact with COVID altogether (proved that before vaccination), but the vaccine intentionally introduces the risk.

speeder 08-08-2021 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsscott (Post 11417132)
The EMA says ‘These reports describe suspected side effects in individuals, i.e., medical events observed following the use of a vaccine. The fact that someone has had a medical issue or died after vaccination does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused this.’

‘This may have been caused, for example, by health problems not related to the vaccination. The EU regulatory network continuously monitors EudraVigilance to detect any new safety issues.’
From your link. Nice try.
Apparently, some of the brain trust here expected the Covid19 Vaccines to come with a guarantee that you will live forever if taken. Let's see...350 million doses given in the USA alone...the first wave of those was only people 65 and older, in some states it was 75 and older, (Minnesota).

5000 of those senior citizens have died in the last year, out of what, 100 million? You cock-knockers are aware that they gave the first vaccines to people in nursing homes, right? :rolleyes:

This is your attempt at medical science? Go back to polishing your lugnutz and stop spreading misinformation, for fk's sake. This is embarrassing, even by the extremely low intellectual standards of this forum. Jesus... :rolleyes:

fintstone 08-08-2021 07:28 AM
What are the chances that a child living in a rural area of the United States will die of COVID without the vaccination? It seems chances are infinitesimally low that they will ever even catch COVID, much less die of it. Why would we force them to take a vaccine (that has actually killed children against their parents will)? Which has the highest risk for the child (vaccination or not)?

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 11417166)
What are the chances that a child living in a rural area of the United States will die of COVID without the vaccination? It seems chances are infinitesimally low that they will ever even catch COVID, much less die of it. Why would we force them to take a vaccine (that has actually killed children against their parents will)? Which has the highest risk for the child (vaccination or not)?
Probably pretty low and not overly concerned about those isolated people.

More like the number of unvaccinated making their way from all over the country to Sturgis this weekend for 10 days of close proximity partying and merrymaking.

They do eventually go home.

Some of them probably to their families.

Maybe in rural areas?

Racerbvd 08-08-2021 08:01 AM
Quote:
Thankfully Byron, you aren't one of them. How did your first jab go? Which vaccine did you get
Thanks, rougher than I expected (to be fair, I didn't expect anything) definitely not positive side effects and still deal with it. I received the Moderna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsscott (Post 11417132)
The EMA says ‘These reports describe suspected side effects in individuals, i.e., medical events observed following the use of a vaccine. The fact that someone has had a medical issue or died after vaccination does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused this.’

‘This may have been caused, for example, by health problems not related to the vaccination. The EU regulatory network continuously monitors EudraVigilance to detect any new safety issues.’
From your link. Nice try.
All I did was post another point of view, that is the problem I have with this, you either accept the government point of view, without question, even though you have absolutely no recourse if something goes wrong, no one is held accountable.
And to compare this to polio or shingles vaccines is BS, those were products of nature, this isn't.
We truly have no clue what long term side effects might be, we are literally just told to shut up and get jabbed.

fintstone 08-08-2021 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417211)
Probably pretty low and not overly concerned about those isolated people.

More like the number of unvaccinated making their way from all over the country to Sturgis this weekend for 10 days of close proximity partying and merrymaking.

They do eventually go home.

Some of them probably to their families.

Maybe in rural areas?
Those are choices they make, not the government. The risk to that child would likely still be greater from the vaccine than the chance that a family member would go to Sturgis (unknown to the rest of the immediate family...so they could not avoid contact for a couple weeks) and infect them. And, of course, children almost never die from it...even if infected.

speeder 08-08-2021 08:15 AM
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1628439321.jpg

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 08:32 AM
Good. Thanks for doing that. How the hell else are we going to get to see EVERY car show in southern Florida. Keep em coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racerbvd (Post 11417212)
Thanks, rougher than I expected (to be fair, I didn't expect anything) definitely not positive side effects and still deal with it. I received the Moderna.

dafischer 08-08-2021 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11417154)
Let's see...350 million doses given in the USA alone...the first wave of those was only people 65 and older, in some states it was 75 and older, (Minnesota).
Really? Who got the other 17 million plus doses?

https://www.census.gov/popclock/

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dafischer (Post 11417271)
Really? Who got the other 17 million plus doses?

https://www.census.gov/popclock/
You’d have a legitimate question if everyone who received the vaccine only received one dose and if everyone was vaccinated which would mean we’d not have this multi page **** show if a discussion about the unvaccinated going on here.

dafischer 08-08-2021 09:13 AM
Duh...you're right. My bad.

fintstone 08-08-2021 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11417228)
According to the CDC, only 335 of the 600,000 people who have died from COVID-19 in the United States were under 18.

The COVID-19 vaccine is not available for people under age 12. This child was 5.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/06/25/teen-boy-dies-a-few-days-after-receiving-second-covid-vaccine-shot/

Por_sha911 08-08-2021 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417102)
We don't really care about them, we have been clear about that. But the consequences of their decision may not be limited to just themselves. The longer this circulates the more it mutates raising the possibility that it mutates into a variant that renders all current immunities, whether derived through vaccine or natural exposure, ineffective.

It is mutating anyway. Crossover infections are happening. Then there is this nastly little problem to sickness and death from getting the vaccine.

This is just classic whataboutism that has zero to do with the topic at hand. And no, they are not taxing the healthcare system the same way as COVID, not even close. In fact if you care about those peoples access to medical care you would want everyone to get vaccinated so as not to unduly burden the system with something you can prevent and takes 5 minutes of your time, it's selfish.

Wait, WHAT? The consequences of smoking is not taxing our healthcare system? M-kay.


Any reasonable person is concerned about getting sick. That's not virtue signaling, that's just common ****ing sense.
And the virtue signaling is right there when you said:
Quote:
"I'm not really sure why this is even a question when the answer is so obvious, because it greatly reduces the risk of contracting it."
Don't worry about everyone else. They are grown adults who live in a supposedly free country and have the right to make their own choices. If you want to legislate restriction 'for people you don't consider reasonable because they don't agree with you, then I propose we mandate that we outlaw the sale of tobacco. No reasonable person would want to ingest something so massively addictive and proven devastating to your health. That's just common sense. Alcohol is not far behind that in danger.

Please hear what I am NOT saying. I am not saying the vaccine is good or bad. That is for every adult to decide.

I am saying that mandating the vaccine "for your own good" is bad.

Por_sha911 08-08-2021 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11417228)
I think she learned the laughing trick from Kamela.

speeder 08-08-2021 12:39 PM
She should be shot in the neck.

javadog 08-08-2021 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by speeder (Post 11417486)
She should be shot in the neck.
Fine. I will give you that one if you get rid of Kamala.*

*Special note to the United States Secret Service. This is sarcasm.

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Por_sha911 (Post 11417412)
And the virtue signaling is right there when you said:

Don't worry about everyone else. They are grown adults who live in a supposedly free country and have the right to make their own choices. If you want to legislate restriction 'for people you don't consider reasonable because they don't agree with you, then I propose we mandate that we outlaw the sale of tobacco. No reasonable person would want to ingest something so massively addictive and proven devastating to your health. That's just common sense. Alcohol is not far behind that in danger.

Please hear what I am NOT saying. I am not saying the vaccine is good or bad. That is for every adult to decide.

I am saying that mandating the vaccine "for your own good" is bad.
You have a very odd debate style.

You posted very specific questions that i answered.

Your 1st question had nothing to do with should it be mandatory or any personal choice / freedom issues your response up there is a total non sequitur.

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?

FWIW, Austin went stage 5 three days ago. As of today only 6 available ICU beds. That’s not because of smokers.

And again, virtue signaling is not one acknowledging what’s plainly obvious. Getting ones panties in a twist over a vaccine that one chooses not to get because of “freedom” is virtue signaling.

daepp 08-08-2021 02:39 PM
What an incredibly lame poll. Where is the "Do nothing/Live and Let Live" choice?

fintstone 08-08-2021 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417520)
You have a very odd debate style.

You posted very specific questions that i answered.

Your 1st question had nothing to do with should it be mandatory or any personal choice / freedom issues your response up there is a total non sequitur.

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?

FWIW, Austin went stage 5 three days ago. As of today only 6 available ICU beds. That’s not because of smokers.

And again, virtue signaling is not one acknowledging what’s plainly obvious. Getting ones panties in a twist over a vaccine that one chooses not to get because of “freedom” is virtue signaling.
If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.

daepp 08-08-2021 03:00 PM
How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 11417591)
If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.
Interesting way to say you were wrong and admit you agree that the hoards of unvaccinated are a major public health hazard.

island911 08-08-2021 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417611)
Interesting way to say you were wrong and admit you agree that the hoards of unvaccinated are a major public health hazard.
He wrote " unvaccinated and infected . . ."

Sheesh.

Esel Mann 08-08-2021 04:11 PM
back on topic for consequences, motion to propose an evening in raw's hanger. chauffeur airport picup in his turbo leCar! any 2nd to motion?

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 04:24 PM
Church let out early today?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 11417591)
If there are 5 empty ICU beds after allowing hordes of unvaccinated and infected pour across the nearby border...that sounds like good news to me.

group911@aol.co 08-08-2021 04:27 PM
News alert. Driving sober has been mandated and codified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daepp (Post 11417593)
How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.

McLovin 08-08-2021 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417520)

And no, i have never seen a hospitals capacity been stretched by patients with smoking related illnesses. Have you? While they do require services do they burden care facilities to the point that elective surgeries get cancelled and every other illness takes a back seat. You are not really trying to seriously equate the two are you?
.
That’s only because we’ve had 200 years to build up hospital capacity to deal with smoking related illnesses.

If the health impacts of smoking suddenly appeared today, its impact on the hospital system would be far greater than COVID is today.

Smoking is a far more deadly and costly health problem than COVID. According to the cdc, smoking kills almost 1 million Americans every 2 years. And has done so for decades. COVID doesn’t even come close.

“Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year.1 In addition, the United States spends more than $300 billion a year on smoking-related illness, including more than $225 billion in direct medical care for adults.”CDC

Por_sha911 08-08-2021 04:52 PM
# of empty beds is akin to the weather for today - a temporary problem. A big one, but temporary.
Lets look at the cost to health insurance and business productivity due to smoking. Lets look at how many people have heart disease and strokes due to smoking.
My point is that there have been restrictions to where you smoke but not if you smoke. That is because the taxes paid on every pack is a cash cow the government doesn't want to give up so all the folks who have 'moral outrage' (aka virtue signaling) when it comes to COVID and public health just have another martini and look the other way at cigarette sales.

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by island911 (Post 11417626)
He wrote " unvaccinated and infected . . ."

Sheesh.
Thanks for putting that in bold but totally not necessary, I can see just fine. Appreciate your looking out though.

Considering the considerable amount of time over the last 18 pages spent discussing that the vaccinated can be infectious it seems logical and obvious to anyone paying attention that the infected is inclusive of both the vaccinated and unvaccinated so there is no reason to make the distinction that he was only referring to the infected who are unvaccinated making it clear that he was referring to two distinct groups, those who are unvaccinated and those who are infected, even though some of the later are represented in the former.

Fint chooses his words very carefully, we have to respect that what he said is what he meant.

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin (Post 11417668)
That’s only because we’ve had 200 years to build up hospital capacity to deal with smoking related illnesses.

If the health impacts of smoking suddenly appeared today, its impact on the hospital system would be far greater than COVID is today.

Smoking is a far more deadly and costly health problem than COVID. According to the cdc, smoking kills almost 1 million Americans every 2 years. And has done so for decades. COVID doesn’t even come close.

“Cigarette smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year.1 In addition, the United States spends more than $300 billion a year on smoking-related illness, including more than $225 billion in direct medical care for adults.”CDC
But it never has made that impact on the healthcare system, ever. I'll grant you the healthcare system had time to adapt. Do any of us really want to live in a world where we've adapted to COVID in perpetuity?

500,000 a year is 1 million every 2 years and I think more than comes close to 480,000, in fact, I'm pretty sure it's more.

But just to make sure lemme go find a 5th grader to validate.

BRB.

Por_sha911 08-08-2021 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417682)
But it never has made that impact on the healthcare system, ever. I'll grant you the healthcare system had time to adapt. Do any of us really want to live in a world where we've adapted to COVID in perpetuity?
Check out the actuary tables of the health insurance industry and see HOW MUCH MORE YOU PAY for healthcare due to smokers. They've only recently started mildly adjusting rates for non smokers but they have to have enough cushion to protect themselves from the liars.

stomachmonkey 08-08-2021 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Por_sha911 (Post 11417691)
Check out the actuary tables of the health insurance industry and see HOW MUCH MORE YOU PAY for healthcare due to smokers. They've only recently started adjusting rates for non smokers but they have to have enough cushion to protect themselves from the liars.
Meh, I smoked for 30+ years. I know, not the smartest thing and maybe, hopefully not, I'll suffer the consequences of some poor decision making but at least the value proposition for me was fair with respect to insurance.

McLovin 08-08-2021 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417682)

500,000 a year is 1 million every 2 years and I think more than comes close to 480,000, in fact, I'm pretty sure it's more.

But just to make sure lemme go find a 5th grader to validate.

BRB.
Run the math for 1980 to 2020.
Or 2018 to 2020.
Or 2019 to 2021.
Or, any 2 year period of your choosing.

Racerbvd 08-08-2021 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daepp (Post 11417593)
How many alcohol related deaths are there each year.

Drunk driving deaths?
Alcohol fueled domestic violence deaths?
Accidental falls, etc?
Cirrhosis deaths and liver cancer death?
Alcohol related hypertension deaths?
Alcohol related heart disease?
Death from stroke?
Death from mouth, throat, esophagus disease?

And how many alcohol related mental health problems, including depression and anxiety, social problems, including family problems, job-related problems, and how much unemployment?

So I think the world would be a much better place without alcohol. And I have a right to my feelings, and you all have to abide by my opinions if you want to force me to take a non-FEA-approved vaccine that I am not convinced I need.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1628473920.jpg

"Congress Could Mandate Anti–Drunk Driving Technology in New Cars" https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp37220611/anti-drunk-driving-congress-law/

island911 08-08-2021 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stomachmonkey (Post 11417675)
Thanks for putting that in bold but totally not necessary, ..
clearly a little bit necessary. You did miss it the first time. :)


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