Advice Please regarding a sale here on 911 used parts

[Matt Monson]

Something that I think most people in this thread don't understand, and which I stated previously, is that in the business, a "core" has a very specific meaning. To someone like Bill Rader, or California Motorsports or Vertex or COGs Cogs, when they offer you a rebuilt gearbox on a core exchange basis, they are expecting something to show up with the bulk of the non-service parts in good usable condition. Every single one of those shops would refuse to refund your core deposit if this gearbox showed up on their dock.

Someone emphasized my use of "rebuidable" in an earlier post and said the ad just said core. That's irrelevant. My comment was redundant. Bill has confirmed that to a gearbox builder this does NOT qualify as a core in the condition it is in. I think this is the basis of the misunderstanding between the buyer and the seller. They aren't using the same definition for a core gearbox.

I hope my comments in this thread will aid other people, buyers and sellers, in the future to avoid getting here. More due diligence from each of them could have easily avoided this situation.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

That may be but I still go back to the fact that he said “unknown history.”

At that point, I would have done a little more due diligence beyond “I’ll take it.”

I haven’t followed the market since I sold all my cars, was price a factor here? Does an average gearbox of that vintage sell for more money these days? The speed with which it was sold leads me to believe that it was priced cheap.

Exactly.

History unknown negates any opinion anyone should have of it's condition.

"Consider it a core" is worthless for purchase consideration because it is not factual, it's an uninformed opinion.

Would anyone of us here have purchased it at that price sight unseen if OP had only listed it as "history unknown" and left out the core reference?

No, not without a PPI from a shop.

Both parties failed to do their due diligence.

Seller intentionally or unintentionally painted a rosier picture than what was reality and buyer ignored the only part of the description that mattered.

[javadog]

We all understand what a core is, with respect to a “core charge” when buying rebuilt parts. That’s why I alluded to the fact that it was an unfortunate choice of words, given the context of “history unknown.” I take note that the seller didn’t even pass on what he was told, since he had no way to back it up. It’s unfortunate that this took place but I put most of the blame on the buyer for not doing any due diligence whatsoever. My feelings would be different if the seller had any knowledge of the condition, or even suspicions, and didn’t pass those along.

If I were the seller, I’d probably refund an amount equal to the profit on the deal, plus the difference between what the seller paid for the transmission and the value of any usable parts.

I’d still like to see a list of the components that are damaged, and why, and a list of what is still usable.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Bill has confirmed that to a gearbox builder this does NOT qualify as a core in the condition it is in.

If there's any chance that semantics might be involved, the burden of confirming a definition should fall squarely on either the expert or the purchaser.

And if these are one in the same ...

Here's hoping buyer and seller can reach an agreement that makes sense to both parties.

_

[Matt Monson]

I’ve said my peace. The buyer and seller had/have different ideas of what a core gearbox is. I’m not gonna blame either of them, as I think both parties acted in good faith.

If I were the seller I would have already refunded the money and gotten on with my life. And I’d be pissed at myself for buying the damn thing at the swap meet without doing better due diligence. Me personally, if I passed that bad buy onto another person I wouldn’t sleep right.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Me personally, if I passed that bad buy onto another person I wouldn’t sleep right.

I agree completely with you on this, Matt. If I'd been the seller I'd want to make it right, up to and including a full refund.

On the flip side however, if I'd been the buyer I'd have chalked it up to life, and the seller would have never heard from me on it.

When I distill it down in my simple mind, I see both sides and don't think either party is completely wrong.

_

[ted]

Ballsy buyer to buy a core and complain it needs service.
You owe him nothing.
Giving him the profit is nice but taking it back even if buyer pays the freight both ways not an option since the 915 has been opened up by the buyer.
I paid $5k for a used race 915 20 years ago.
$2500 for unknown history 915 seems fair.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Norm K

I agree completely with you on this, Matt. If I'd been the seller I'd want to make it right, up to and including a full refund.

On the flip side however, if I'd been the buyer I'd have chalked it up to life, and the seller would have never heard from me on it.

When I distill it down in my simple mind, I see both sides and don't think either party is completely wrong.

_

Yep. Agree with Matt as welll. "Consider it a core" means to me that it is at least a good core. "Consider it a boat anchor" is entirely different. Clearly the mechanic trusted by both has declared it is not reusable as a "core" as represented.

People flipping parts here should take responsibility for an accurate description of condition. Especially if the seller is a long time poster where some knowledge is expected. They are the only one with access to the part. Folks that post here generally trust the seller to disclose any issues. This is like selling a part that is DOA on receipt.

The buyer has come more than half way as he has accepted shipping costs and the sunk cost of the mechanic. He loses money a good deal of money while the seller just get back exactly what he sold (with a free evaluation from a wrench he uses, knows and trusts). I really find the "buyer beware" attitude a bit discomforting. I would never dream of sticking someone with a defective part that was clearly that way when I shipped it.

[javadog]

Matt and fintstone do make some good points…

[stomachmonkey]

"History unknown" renders "Consider it a core" useless as anything worth considering.

Given sellers pedigree shame on him for not making sure he knew what he was selling.

Shame on the buyer for not doing his due diligence.

The deal should be unwound and both parties take the financial lumps they are responsible for incurring.

[pa911]

I wonder why the ad says " First "I'll take it" supersedes all others" Does that mean you did not want any questions?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by pa911

I wonder why the ad says " First "I'll take it" supersedes all others" Does that mean you did not want any questions?

Often times, some people will respond through private messaging and there can be some confusion as to who was first in line. Since the people posting in the thread can’t see the PMs, they sometimes get their nose out of joint if they think they are first in line for something and somebody has already agreed to buy it through a private message.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by pa911

I wonder why the ad says " First "I'll take it" supersedes all others" Does that mean you did not want any questions?

It doesn't mean the seller doesn't want questions, it means they'll honor "I'll take it" So if everyone is asking questions, you answer those questions, and someone says "I'll take it" that means sorry about your luck to the rest.

My favorite when I was selling parts was someone saying they'd take it and then people were trying to dictate their place in line. I started putting that I'd determine order of buyers because of that.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by cabmando

It doesn't mean the seller doesn't want questions, it means they'll honor "I'll take it" So if everyone is asking questions, you answer those questions, and someone says "I'll take it" that means sorry about your luck to the rest.

My favorite when I was selling parts was someone saying they'd take it and then people were trying to dictate their place in line. I started putting that I'd determine order of buyers because of that.

I put in the ad “no dibs “ and that prospective buyers will be taken in the order they PM me. And if you were first and offered $100 under ask, and the second guy offers full price, I’m gonna sell to number 2. They get first crack at making a deal, not some option to buy I need to entertain for a week.

I once had some guy accuse me of not being transparent. He disappeared quickly when I stated that I would be right back with a screenshot of my PM in box…

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by javadog

Often times, some people will respond through private messaging and there can be some confusion as to who was first in line. Since the people posting in the thread can’t see the PMs, they sometimes get their nose out of joint if they think they are first in line for something and somebody has already agreed to buy it through a private message.

Yes.

I moderate the Facebook Classifieds page for our community. 3,000+ members and this is one of our biggest issues.

Group rules are go in the order of publicly posted expression of purchase intent. PM's are to be ignored.

But not everyone in the group reads or remembers the rules so naturally some will try to take advantage of that and PM if they want the item but are not first in line in the public queue.

Then I have to hear it from the person following the rules when they don't get the item.

Luckily the people I moderate aren't 1/10th the hassle of the average PPOT poster.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by javadog

So, what exactly is damaged?

Understand the internals probably not be good enough for a "high end" application but will it shift and spin freely after a fluid top up ?

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by pmax

Understand the internals probably not be good enough for a "high end" application but will it shift and spin freely after a fluid top up ?

I have 'repaired' 915's that worked quite well, and never had another issue. I am 100% sure lots of rebuilders (and people who post here) would call my work 'sub-par' at best. And yet they work fine....the 915 seems to illicit huge variations in what's acceptable.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

I have 'repaired' 915's that worked quite well, and never had another issue. I am 100% sure lots of rebuilders (and people who post here) would call my work 'sub-par' at best. And yet they work fine....the 915 seems to illicit huge variations in what's acceptable.

Indeed ... and I suspect there’s some of that misunderstanding here. I can’t inform on the current values given the recent craziness in the marketplace but if the darn thing shifts and turns, I say it definitely qualifies as a core if I’m the buyer.

Still wanna see some pics. Curious what the gears look like run low.

[john walker's workshop]

Without pics, we don't have a case. Close-ups on the teeth of all 5 gear sets and R&P showing the wear please. Is the outer pinion bearing race loose in the diff housing? Are the other outer races loose in the center housing?

[Matt Monson]

If the box was run without oil, and the gears got hot enough to blue, the heat treat is ruined and the gears are about as strong as dried play dough.