This dead horse is being beaten so much it is looking like hamburger. Jeff is stuck on his opinion that a movie set and the real world have the same rules. Whatever.

I will say this: is a race car driver is put into a car where the mechanics didn't put brake fluid in the brakes and he crashes and kills someone, is the driver responsible or is the mechanic that handed him a faulty machine?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1635214717.jpg

BTW, I watched a John Wick marathon a few weeks back and noticed that there is virtually NO recoil movement on any of the weapons fired. I know Reeves is an expert with guns but even an expert can't control a handgun to have zero recoil movement. Most of the general public wouldn't see that but people who know firearms do.

Army vet? Heh heh... Then I'm sure you are intimately familiar with firing line "hijinks" and grab-ass, while still observing every safety rule in the book. We take all of it very seriously, while still finding ways to have fun with one another, often at each other's expense. It's all good. Oh, and I'm sure we have faced similar safety concerns when abroad, working in Third World schitt holes as we do ("did", for me). It sure kept it "interesting" at times...

I understand that you are very serious about your safety protocols. I said before, I know nothing about your industry, and I've refrained from commenting on it as a whole. But I do know firearms, and firearms safety. In light of what just happened, it appears that your industry needs to have a bit of a "coming to Jesus" moment on this front. You're going to bruise some fragile egos, step on some toes, but, ultimately, save some lives. I hope so anyway. Good luck. And keep your head down...

Another flawed analogy.

Alec Baldwin's firearm functioned exactly as designed. It did not fail in any way. It was not poorly serviced or maintained. It did exactly what we expect from a firearm - it fired when he pulled the trigger. No one "handed him a faulty machine".

This wasn't even a "nice try". :rolleyes:

No, my approach is the same as yours, at the range or hunting with friends or by myself. . A movie set is different. Do I think every about this situation is haphazard and negligent? Yes. Would a judge? I don’t think so. If Baldwin followed the rules given any other actor the Baldwin the actor would not be liable. Now if Baldwin the producer cheaped out on production thus lowering safety standards that go against normal protocol? Well then Baldwin is up schitt creek.

Nope, hanging up my holster. It's nothing but romantic comedies from here on out until retirement.

Hallmark Channel here I come! :cool:

The race car would have functioned correctly as well had it had brake fluid. The same way the revolver would have if it were in fact a cold gun.

OMG - you and Kelly McGillis... :D

I apologize for the typos. I’m on a road trip and I forgot my glasses at home.

Bottom line is that industry protocol was not followed and someone died as a result. There have been millions of films and TV shows with guns in them where no one was shot. This is an extreme anomaly and a tragedy.

Correct.

That said, rules for the handling of firearms are different than those of handling race cars. As stated earlier, rules for handling firearms are necessarily different than those for handling any other modern artifact.

We cannot expect a race driver to check every fluid, every nut and bolt, every component of their car before going out. It's simply impractical to do so anyway.

Firearms are simple. It takes literally a couple of seconds to check if they are loaded. And the consequences of not doing so can be far more immediate, far more devastating. As such, there is simply no excuse for anyone who has been handed a firearm, or has picked one up, to have not done so. No excuse.

Again, if you really are the firearms owner you claim to be, you concern me. I believe you are saying that if I hand you a firearm and tell you that it is unloaded, you will take me at my word and not check for yourself. If that is true, you have no business handling firearms.

No it isn't. That appears to be the argument, however. A fatally flawed argument.

Again, when guns are involved, the rules never change. Those who believe they do wind up killing people.

"Hollywood" movie production has long been in exodus from California, apparently due to extreme costs and what some see are draconian rules and high taxes and licensing fees. I don't know enough about any of that, but it seems to me that as long as production is going to move across state borders, in order to keep the crew safe during what are obviously dangerous working conditions, the Fed is going to have to get involved in set safety. I would have thought that OSHA by and large would have had parallel safety measures in place to keep this exact thing from happening, but what happened on the set of "Rust" tells me that a tragedy like this has probably been coming for a long time. Guns, fast cars, big trucks, helicopters, explosives, crazy stunts are all part of the game, and if steady eddy isn't there to shut things down the minute he sees that safety rules are being bent or broken in spite of the producers demands to keep things moving forward this will happen again, and maybe it won't be a couple of casualties but dozens.

Again, I don't know anything about the movie business. I just know what I read. And from what I read, California has a pretty good safety record when it comes to Hollywood movies. Other states need to follow that lead, or risk tragedy.

I think Baldwin the actor has great exposure here. They were not filming when he pulled the trigger. I think that's a violation of protocol. It sounds like anyone firing a gun outside the actual filming of it is a violation.

I mostly drop in and read. The last one I thought about responding to was the LtCol. Scheller.

Jeff Higgins is right full stop. It takes less than one half hour to teach basic firearms safety, even to young children. All firearms, and things that look like firearms, are loaded in condition 0 until you personally verify any other condition.

My close observation of the entertainment industry is limited but I was not impressed. 2006 while recuperating I was doing work in Morocco on a number of projects and crossed paths the people running both at airports and while conducting some site surveys for Med/Dent caps. I retired in 2012 and have a cousin working on Chicago P.D. who asked to stop by while on terminal leave. The entitled butt hurt in Morocco that mere Marines, Sailors, and SF bypassed security, and went places they were not allowed to go was freely vocalized. Our hosts (the Moroccan military) were professional and safety conscious with more than a few stories dumb $hittery from movie people that would put any self respecting Lcpl. to shame.

Similar stuff visiting the Chicago P.D. set, but I was there voluntarily so I excused myself.

The entertainment professionals are coming off as “We're special” and can't be bothered to conduct minimal training of a five year old and enforce the most basic discipline. What I hear here, and saw with the above examples are CYA.

Alec Baldwin is the only one at fault. Denying that the responsibility lies with the adult, unless they are provably mentally incompetent, is dishonest.

Craigster,

I have never met Jeff Higgins and have only worked with the military side of Boeing. I became a Marine in 1980, commissioned in 1987, wings in 1991, and retired 2012. I am an Aviation Safety School grad and been involved in than a handful mishap investigations, both aviation and ground. If what I saw in Chicago and Morocco are average for your industry you are well below professional aviation.

S/F, FOG

Not following you, FOG.

Over.

I agree with all of this except your last paragraph. I clearly said what I do on the range and what is done on a movie set are two different things. The job of the armorer is to make sure the actor or actress is handed a safe prop gun, not to give them a live gun. Now I agree that it should not be like this but it sounds like it is. Thus I don’t think the actor is liable.

In your world which is the correct world you are 100% right and agree with you full stop. I’ll say it again, the rules on a movie set, however flawed, may be different thus protecting Baldwin from criminal prosecution. Civil on the other hand is a completely different story.

That stupid stupid girl armourer. If she had done her job properly she would have inspected each gun (including having looked down the barrel for squibs or obstructions). Inspected each piece of ammunition. Known what each piece of ammunition was. Blanks are easy to identify. Cartridges with no powder but have a projectile don't need a primer - so that's not complicated. Hell, she was there all day, what was she doing with her time. She should have focused on her important job.

Baldwin got told by anauthoritative person the gun was safe, so he believed it to be.

I agree - what is done, what is acceptable on a firing range vs. a production set are clearly two different things. That much has been made clear over the course of this discussion.

And therein lies the problem. That's why people die on production sets. Apparently, at least from my experience at my club range, at a much higher rate than they die on firing ranges. At my club range, for example, that number is zero. Over 80 years of operation, with tens of millions of rounds sent down range. Far more in any given year than all of the entertainment industry combined. Yet they kill people. We don't. Because they "are two different things", and the industry accepts that. They shouldn't. That attitude kills people. The rules never change. When they do, people die.

My responsibility, when I hand someone a gun and tell them it is unloaded, is to ensure that it is indeed unloaded. Exactly like the armorer.

The responsibility of the individual receiving that firearm from me is to ensure that it is, indeed, unloaded. That responsibility does not go away on a movie set. When it does, people die. It really is that simple. Firearms handling rules are painfully simple. Violate them, ignore them, and people die. Even on movie sets. That's why they never change, even on movie sets.