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-   -   How does this happen ? Movie set death (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=1104960)

Jeff Higgins 10-25-2021 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc (Post 11497269)
If the safety protocol on a movie set is the armorer has the final word of go/no go then I don't see how Baldwin is responsible .

I know nothing about movie making, but I do know guns. The only man responsible for what happens with a gun is the guy who is holding it when it happens. No one else is responsible in any way, shape, or form. Ever. For any reason.

The absolute first thing we do when picking up a firearm is to check and see if it's loaded. Even if someone hands you a firearm and tells you it is unloaded, the first thing we do is check. Each and every time. Without fail.

Baldwin failed to follow this simple rule. It absolutely does not matter what happened prior to that. It does not matter in the least why it was loaded when he either picked it up or it was handed to him. "Every gun is always loaded" is such a simple rule, and it is entirely the responsibility of the man holding it to treat it that way, no one else's. The gun was in his hand, he aimed it, he pulled the trigger. 100% on him and no one else. He should be facing negligent homicide or manslaughter charges at the very least. He killed someone. Through sheer stupidity, lack of training, lack of discipline. It's entirely on him.

rfuerst911sc 10-25-2021 09:04 AM

I had not considered his producer role , thanks for the clarification .

craigster59 10-25-2021 09:05 AM

Here is a recent example of the death of a camera operator on the Gregg Allman biographical film "Midnight Rider". Producers neglected to get permission and proper permits to film on a train trestle.

It was going to be a quick shot and they thought they could save time and money by doing a little "Guerrilla Filmmaking". Unfortunately it cost a young woman her life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Rider_(film)

rfuerst911sc 10-25-2021 09:12 AM

Jeff as a fellow gun owner I agree with what you are saying . All of us that have been trained in the real world handling real weapons would have it no other way . I just wonder if those rules are different on a movie set where in theory it is make believe or simulated . Common sense says no but it is Hollywood . I have no problem with ALL parties involved in the tragedy that are found guilty be held accountable .

craigster59 10-25-2021 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 11497303)
I know nothing about movie making, but I do know guns. The only man responsible for what happens with a gun is the guy who is holding it when it happens. No one else is responsible in any way, shape, or form. Ever. For any reason.

The absolute first thing we do when picking up a firearm is to check and see if it's loaded. Even if someone hands you a firearm and tells you it is unloaded, the first thing we do is check. Each and every time. Without fail.

Baldwin failed to follow this simple rule. It absolutely does not matter what happened prior to that. It does not matter in the least why it was loaded when he either picked it up or it was handed to him. "Every gun is always loaded" is such a simple rule, and it is entirely the responsibility of the man holding it to treat it that way, no one else's. The gun was in his hand, he aimed it, he pulled the trigger. 100% on him and no one else. He should be facing negligent homicide or manslaughter charges at the very least. He killed someone. Through sheer stupidity, lack of training, lack of discipline. It's entirely on him.

I understand what you're saying as a gun owner and shooter. I am the same way and act like a little old scared woman around any weapons, safety is always first.

But these are actors. Some not knowledgeable in a single shot shotgun much less an automatic weapon. That's what Armorers and prop masters are for. We practice the safety aspect so actors can concentrate on hitting their camera marks and knowing their lines.

You wouldn't expect an actor who lives in NYC and commutes by taxi every day to understand the workings of a Ferrari and have the driving abilities of a Michael Schumacher. Or how to actually defuse an IED or any random task that is put before them.

Some that I've worked with, you're lucky if they can actually walk and chew gum at the same time.

Crowbob 10-25-2021 09:16 AM

Well what if on a movie set involving fast cars and pedestrians somebody got run over by a driver who was high?

Should he skate?

javadog 10-25-2021 09:18 AM

I think the issue is a little more complicated than just blaming Baldwin. Everyone from the executive producer on down that had any kind of management role in how the shoot was run has some potential liability. Obviously, the armorer seems to be the main culprit, She clearly did not do her job properly. The AD also played a role. The gun itself may be defective, if it was the same gun that caused the prior incidents.

I don’t know if it’s proper to apply a normal gun safety rules to an actor in a production, as I don’t know the rules that they are required to operate under. It’s common sense, sure, but there may be reasons they don’t do that that have to be considered.

Like most people, I can’t stand Baldwin. But if he wasn’t just screwing around and he was acting or rehearsing certain moves under the direction of the Director, I can’t blame him entirely.

The loss of that woman in the prime of her life is such a tragedy. This kind of crap doesn’t have to happen and shouldn’t even be a possibility.

MikeSid 10-25-2021 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 11497303)
I know nothing about movie making, but I do know guns. The only man responsible for what happens with a gun is the guy who is holding it when it happens. No one else is responsible in any way, shape, or form. Ever. For any reason.

The absolute first thing we do when picking up a firearm is to check and see if it's loaded. Even if someone hands you a firearm and tells you it is unloaded, the first thing we do is check. Each and every time. Without fail.

Baldwin failed to follow this simple rule. It absolutely does not matter what happened prior to that. It does not matter in the least why it was loaded when he either picked it up or it was handed to him. "Every gun is always loaded" is such a simple rule, and it is entirely the responsibility of the man holding it to treat it that way, no one else's. The gun was in his hand, he aimed it, he pulled the trigger. 100% on him and no one else. He should be facing negligent homicide or manslaughter charges at the very least. He killed someone. Through sheer stupidity, lack of training, lack of discipline. It's entirely on him.

This makes perfect sense to me if what you are handed is a real gun. The fact that this was a movie set complicates things. Surely it would be best if everyone treated movie guns just like real guns. And obviously what he was handed was a real gun. But if an actor is handed a rubber ducky, you can't expect him to check it if is loaded. He'd have to pretend to check. And in the case of a blank cartridge, he'd have to see that the gun is in fact loaded and check the cartridge. I think the movie set really complicates the handling of firearms - which is why there is an armorer. It would be nice if it were simple, but I just don't think it is. The negligence here is about as gray as it gets.

Crowbob 10-25-2021 09:20 AM

I’m wondering how one could even argue a weapon all of a sudden stops being a weapon because of the person operating it.

masraum 10-25-2021 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc (Post 11497319)
Jeff as a fellow gun owner I agree with what you are saying . All of us that have been trained in the real world handling real weapons would have it no other way . I just wonder if those rules are different on a movie set where in theory it is make believe or simulated . Common sense says no but it is Hollywood . I have no problem with ALL parties involved in the tragedy that are found guilty be held accountable .

That exactly. In the real world, yes. In Hollywood/movie making, I don't think so.

If it's someone like Keanu Reeves, I suspect he checks, but the avg actor/actress, not likely.

For many, it's probably similar to cars. If you hand someone the keys of a car (on-set or in the real world) most folks aren't going to thoroughly vet the car for mechanical/safety issues, and most folks wouldn't know how. Guns are probably exactly the same to 95+% of the population. "don't know, don't care, I have an expert that does know and care, and I rely on that expert (who knows more/better than me) to tell me that I'm good to go."

aschen 10-25-2021 09:22 AM

I don't know. The world is a complicated place. I would think the rules on a movie set would be a bit different than in the real world for gun ownership. I would never point an even unloaded, 7 times verified pistol at anyone in real life.

Seems like a live round shouldnt have even been in the same area code as filming. And a weapons expert should make sure any guns handed to actors should not be live. Its hard to expect every actor handling a gun should be a firearms professional, should be extreme checks to make sure they are never in a spot where this can happen.

The whole thing is a head scratcher to me, even worse is that there are previous precedents. You cant fart in a modern industrial setting without a hot work permit, meanwhile live guns are apparently being passed around nonchalantly on movie sets. How sad.

masraum 10-25-2021 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob (Post 11497323)
Well what if on a movie set involving fast cars and pedestrians somebody got run over because the brakes were inoperable or failed on the car ?

Should he skate?

FIFY. "high" is different from sober, reasonable, and rational, but impacted due to a mechanical failure or poor maintenance by a third party (the mechanic).

drcoastline 10-25-2021 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigster59 (Post 11497321)
I understand what you're saying as a gun owner and shooter. I am the same way and act like a little old scared woman around any weapons, safety is always first.

But these are actors. Some not knowledgeable in a single shot shotgun much less an automatic weapon. That's what Armorers and prop masters are for. We practice the safety aspect so actors can concentrate on hitting their camera marks and knowing their lines.

You wouldn't expect an actor who lives in NYC and commutes by taxi every day to understand the workings of a Ferrari and have the driving abilities of a Michael Schumacher. Or how to actually defuse an IED or any random task that is put before them.

Some that I've worked with, you're lucky if they can actually walk and chew gum at the same time.

Fully understand the protocol, but taking your example. If you put said actor behind the wheel of the Ferrari you would expect the actor to know when the engine is running, where the brake pedal is, ho the pedal works and how to put the car in and out of gear. I would think said actor would recieve at least enough training to know if the engine is running the transmission is in gear don't lift off the brake and press the gas people are standing in front of the car when the engine is running?

In that scenario i the actor ran someone over and killed them who would be reponsible?

javadog 10-25-2021 09:30 AM

According to Hugh, who is in a position to know these things, actors are not even allowed to mess with the guns once they’re handed them. That leads me to believe that there are some rules promulgated that would prevent actors from checking the guns themselves.

Anyway, more details on the incident itself can be read here:

https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2021/10/25/baldwin-was-practicing-cross-draw-crew-member-who-gave-him-gun-had-prior-safety-complaint-n462986

MikeSid 10-25-2021 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbob (Post 11497332)
I’m wondering how one could even argue a weapon all of a sudden stops being a weapon because of the person operating it.

Because the guy operating it is supposed to fire it at another person, make that look real, and not have the other person die. It's a movie. None of it is supposed to be real. That's a lot of opposing training to overcome in this situation.

masraum 10-25-2021 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 11497327)
I think the issue is a little more complicated than just blaming Baldwin. Everyone from the executive producer on down that had any kind of management role in how the shoot was run has some potential liability. Obviously, the armorer seems to be the main culprit, She clearly did not do her job properly. The AD also played a role. The gun itself may be defective, if it was the same gun that caused the prior incidents.

I don’t know if it’s proper to apply a normal gun safety rules to an actor in a production, as I don’t know the rules that they are required to operate under. It’s common sense, sure, but there may be reasons they don’t do that that have to be considered.

Like most people, I can’t stand Baldwin. But if he wasn’t just screwing around and he was acting or rehearsing certain moves under the direction of the Director, I can’t blame him entirely.

The loss of that woman in the prime of her life is such a tragedy. This kind of crap doesn’t have to happen and shouldn’t even be a possibility.

https://how.complexsystems.fail/

Quote:

How Complex Systems Fail

(Being a Short Treatise on the Nature of Failure; How Failure is Evaluated; How Failure is Attributed to Proximate Cause; and the Resulting New Understanding of Patient Safety)
Richard I. Cook, MD
Cognitive Technologies Labratory
University of Chicago

1 Complex systems are intrinsically hazardous systems.
All of the interesting systems (e.g. transportation, healthcare, power generation) are inherently and unavoidably hazardous by the own nature. The frequency of hazard exposure can sometimes be changed but the processes involved in the system are themselves intrinsically and irreducibly hazardous. It is the presence of these hazards that drives the creation of defenses against hazard that characterize these systems.

2 Complex systems are heavily and successfully defended against failure
The high consequences of failure lead over time to the construction of multiple layers of defense against failure. These defenses include obvious technical components (e.g. backup systems, ‘safety’ features of equipment) and human components (e.g. training, knowledge) but also a variety of organizational, institutional, and regulatory defenses (e.g. policies and procedures, certification, work rules, team training). The effect of these measures is to provide a series of shields that normally divert operations away from accidents.

3 Catastrophe requires multiple failures – single point failures are not enough.
The array of defenses works. System operations are generally successful. Overt catastrophic failure occurs when small, apparently innocuous failures join to create opportunity for a systemic accident. Each of these small failures is necessary to cause catastrophe but only the combination is sufficient to permit failure. Put another way, there are many more failure opportunities than overt system accidents. Most initial failure trajectories are blocked by designed system safety components. Trajectories that reach the operational level are mostly blocked, usually by practitioners.

4 Complex systems contain changing mixtures of failures latent within them.
The complexity of these systems makes it impossible for them to run without multiple flaws being present. Because these are individually insufficient to cause failure they are regarded as minor factors during operations. Eradication of all latent failures is limited primarily by economic cost but also because it is difficult before the fact to see how such failures might contribute to an accident. The failures change constantly because of changing technology, work organization, and efforts to eradicate failures.

5 Complex systems run in degraded mode.
A corollary to the preceding point is that complex systems run as broken systems. The system continues to function because it contains so many redundancies and because people can make it function, despite the presence of many flaws. After accident reviews nearly always note that the system has a history of prior ‘proto-accidents’ that nearly generated catastrophe. Arguments that these degraded conditions should have been recognized before the overt accident are usually predicated on naïve notions of system performance. System operations are dynamic, with components (organizational, human, technical) failing and being replaced continuously.

6 Catastrophe is always just around the corner.
Complex systems possess potential for catastrophic failure. Human practitioners are nearly always in close physical and temporal proximity to these potential failures – disaster can occur at any time and in nearly any place. The potential for catastrophic outcome is a hallmark of complex systems. It is impossible to eliminate the potential for such catastrophic failure; the potential for such failure is always present by the system’s own nature.

7 Post-accident attribution to a ‘root cause’ is fundamentally wrong.
Because overt failure requires multiple faults, there is no isolated ‘cause’ of an accident. There are multiple contributors to accidents. Each of these is necessarily insufficient in itself to create an accident. Only jointly are these causes sufficient to create an accident. Indeed, it is the linking of these causes together that creates the circumstances required for the accident. Thus, no isolation of the ‘root cause’ of an accident is possible. The evaluations based on such reasoning as ‘root cause’ do not reflect a technical understanding of the nature of failure but rather the social, cultural need to blame specific, localized forces or events for outcomes. 1

1 Anthropological field research provides the clearest demonstration of the social construction of the notion of ‘cause’ (cf. Goldman L (1993), The Culture of Coincidence: accident and absolute liability in Huli, New York: Clarendon Press; and also Tasca L (1990), The Social Construction of Human Error, Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Department of Sociology, State University of New York at Stonybrook)

8 Hindsight biases post-accident assessments of human performance.
Knowledge of the outcome makes it seem that events leading to the outcome should have appeared more salient to practitioners at the time than was actually the case. This means that ex post facto accident analysis of human performance is inaccurate. The outcome knowledge poisons the ability of after-accident observers to recreate the view of practitioners before the accident of those same factors. It seems that practitioners “should have known” that the factors would “inevitably” lead to an accident. 2 Hindsight bias remains the primary obstacle to accident investigation, especially when expert human performance is involved.

2 This is not a feature of medical judgements or technical ones, but rather of all human cognition about past events and their causes.

9 Human operators have dual roles: as producers & as defenders against failure.
The system practitioners operate the system in order to produce its desired product and also work to forestall accidents. This dynamic quality of system operation, the balancing of demands for production against the possibility of incipient failure is unavoidable. Outsiders rarely acknowledge the duality of this role. In non-accident filled times, the production role is emphasized. After accidents, the defense against failure role is emphasized. At either time, the outsider’s view misapprehends the operator’s constant, simultaneous engagement with both roles.

10 All practitioner actions are gambles.
After accidents, the overt failure often appears to have been inevitable and the practitioner’s actions as blunders or deliberate willful disregard of certain impending failure. But all practitioner actions are actually gambles, that is, acts that take place in the face of uncertain outcomes. The degree of uncertainty may change from moment to moment. That practitioner actions are gambles appears clear after accidents; in general, post hoc analysis regards these gambles as poor ones. But the converse: that successful outcomes are also the result of gambles; is not widely appreciated.
continued

masraum 10-25-2021 09:33 AM

continue from previous post
Quote:


11 Actions at the sharp end resolve all ambiguity.
Organizations are ambiguous, often intentionally, about the relationship between production targets, efficient use of resources, economy and costs of operations, and acceptable risks of low and high consequence accidents. All ambiguity is resolved by actions of practitioners at the sharp end of the system. After an accident, practitioner actions may be regarded as ‘errors’ or ‘violations’ but these evaluations are heavily biased by hindsight and ignore the other driving forces, especially production pressure.

12 Human practitioners are the adaptable element of complex systems.
Practitioners and first line management actively adapt the system to maximize production and minimize accidents. These adaptations often occur on a moment by moment basis. Some of these adaptations include: (1) Restructuring the system in order to reduce exposure of vulnerable parts to failure. (2) Concentrating critical resources in areas of expected high demand. (3) Providing pathways for retreat or recovery from expected and unexpected faults. (4) Establishing means for early detection of changed system performance in order to allow graceful cutbacks in production or other means of increasing resiliency.

13 Human expertise in complex systems is constantly changing
Complex systems require substantial human expertise in their operation and management. This expertise changes in character as technology changes but it also changes because of the need to replace experts who leave. In every case, training and refinement of skill and expertise is one part of the function of the system itself. At any moment, therefore, a given complex system will contain practitioners and trainees with varying degrees of expertise. Critical issues related to expertise arise from (1) the need to use scarce expertise as a resource for the most difficult or demanding production needs and (2) the need to develop expertise for future use.

14 Change introduces new forms of failure.
The low rate of overt accidents in reliable systems may encourage changes, especially the use of new technology, to decrease the number of low consequence but high frequency failures. These changes maybe actually create opportunities for new, low frequency but high consequence failures. When new technologies are used to eliminate well understood system failures or to gain high precision performance they often introduce new pathways to large scale, catastrophic failures. Not uncommonly, these new, rare catastrophes have even greater impact than those eliminated by the new technology. These new forms of failure are difficult to see before the fact; attention is paid mostly to the putative beneficial characteristics of the changes. Because these new, high consequence accidents occur at a low rate, multiple system changes may occur before an accident, making it hard to see the contribution of technology to the failure.

15 Views of ‘cause’ limit the effectiveness of defenses against future events.
Post-accident remedies for “human error” are usually predicated on obstructing activities that can “cause” accidents. These end-of-the-chain measures do little to reduce the likelihood of further accidents. In fact that likelihood of an identical accident is already extraordinarily low because the pattern of latent failures changes constantly. Instead of increasing safety, post-accident remedies usually increase the coupling and complexity of the system. This increases the potential number of latent failures and also makes the detection and blocking of accident trajectories more difficult.

16 Safety is a characteristic of systems and not of their components
Safety is an emergent property of systems; it does not reside in a person, device or department of an organization or system. Safety cannot be purchased or manufactured; it is not a feature that is separate from the other components of the system. This means that safety cannot be manipulated like a feedstock or raw material. The state of safety in any system is always dynamic; continuous systemic change insures that hazard and its management are constantly changing.

17 People continuously create safety.
Failure free operations are the result of activities of people who work to keep the system within the boundaries of tolerable performance. These activities are, for the most part, part of normal operations and superficially straightforward. But because system operations are never trouble free, human practitioner adaptations to changing conditions actually create safety from moment to moment. These adaptations often amount to just the selection of a well-rehearsed routine from a store of available responses; sometimes, however, the adaptations are novel combinations or de novo creations of new approaches.

18 Failure free operations require experience with failure.
Recognizing hazard and successfully manipulating system operations to remain inside the tolerable performance boundaries requires intimate contact with failure. More robust system performance is likely to arise in systems where operators can discern the “edge of the envelope”. This is where system performance begins to deteriorate, becomes difficult to predict, or cannot be readily recovered. In intrinsically hazardous systems, operators are expected to encounter and appreciate hazards in ways that lead to overall performance that is desirable. Improved safety depends on providing operators with calibrated views of the hazards. It also depends on providing calibration about how their actions move system performance towards or away from the edge of the envelope.

MikeSid 10-25-2021 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcoastline (Post 11497347)
Fully understand the protocol, but taking your example. If you put said actor behind the wheel of the Ferrari you would expect the actor to know when the engine is running, where the brake pedal is, ho the pedal works and how to put the car in and out of gear. I would think said actor would recieve at least enough training to know if the engine is running the transmission is in gear don't lift off the brake and press the gas people are standing in front of the car when the engine is running?

In that scenario i the actor ran someone over and killed them who would be reponsible?

What if the actor is supposed to run over the person in front of them as part of the script? Baldwin didn't just randomly shoot someone. It was part of the scene. He was supposed to fire the gun. Your hypothetic is off the mark significantly.

craigster59 10-25-2021 09:35 AM

It really comes down to one thing: The Armorer.

Very young: 24 y.o.

Very inexperienced

Questionable social media postings

Used her father's last name professionally to add some "legitimacy" as a reason to hire her

Allowing weapons outside of her secure possession

Allowing non authorized people to handle weapons

Allowing non authorized people to do HER job

That's beside the fact she used movie guns to be used recreationally, allowed live ammo on set, etc

Crowbob 10-25-2021 09:37 AM

The issue is here negligence. The high driver, whether he knew he was impaired or not, or whether he intentionally killed somebody or not is not relevant. He was operating the car, it was his responsibility.

If, say, the car driven by a sober person had defective brakes, it is not reasonable for the driver to examine and test the brakes. The car is not a weapon (under almost all circumstances). There are not, relatively speaking, very specific protocols in place incumbent on the operator of the car.

However, a drunk person getting into a car to drive it is negligent six ways to Sunday and any person handling a firearm, no matter where or under any circumstance, not knowing if it was or was not loaded is negligent.


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