Kia Service Rant

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by john70t

The Korean auto drive-trains are not known to be dependable but they did offer a 100k warranty.

They are screwing their customers on the warranty for known defects.

November 9, 2021
Whistleblower gets more than $24M for reporting Hyundai and Kia over engine fires
https://www.npr.org/2021/11/09/1053985268/whistleblower-gets-more-than-24m-for-reporting-hyundai-and-kia-over-engine-fires

DETROIT — The U.S. government's road safety agency has paid more than $24 million to a whistleblower who reported that Hyundai and Kia moved too slowly to recall over 1 million vehicles with engines that could freeze up or catch fire.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says the award is the first it has paid to a whistleblower. It's also the maximum percentage allowed by law of penalties paid by the Korean automakers...................

The U.S. safety agency opened its probe in 2017 after Hyundai recalled about 470,000 vehicles in September of 2015 because debris from manufacturing could restrict oil flow to connecting rod bearings. That could make the bearings wear out and fail, potentially causing the four-cylinder "Theta II" engines to stall or catch fire. The repair was an expensive engine block replacement..................

Engine failure and fire problems with Hyundais and Kias have plagued the companies for more than five years, affecting the owners of more than 8 million vehicles.

Theta II = POS, no thanks, and the dealerships were blaming the customers for the failures in many cases and charging them for new engines. Not good people or practices in my opinion.

10 November 2021
Hyundai, Kia whistleblower awarded $24m for reporting safety violations
It's the first such award issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
https://uk.motor1.com/news/546716/hyundai-whistleblower-awarded-money-nhtsa/

The fine involved vehicle recalls from 2011 through 2014 and was tied to engines. Specifically, manufacturing problems with some of the 2.0-litre and 2.4-litre engines could lead to premature failure, notably in the Sonata saloon and Santa Fe SUV. Kia vehicles using these engines also experienced issues, but this wasn't the reason for the fine.

According to the NHTSA, neither Kia nor its parent company Hyundai responded to this potential safety issue in an adequate time, and the company allegedly reported inaccurate information about the seriousness of the issue. Apparently, these are things the whistleblower brought to light. And now, that action is rewarded by a multi-million-dollar reward.

From back in 2016:
http://www.hyundaiproblems.com/theta-ii-engine/

Below from back in 2018, extended warranties not being honored either.

Hyundai Won’t Honor Their Warranty on Theta II Engine
https://community.cartalk.com/t/hyundai-wont-honor-their-warranty-on-theta-ii-engine/131513/13

Meanwhile, up in Canada.

November 18, 2019
Kia, Hyundai Canada Class Action Alleges Engine Failure
https://ca.topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/kia-hyundai-canada-class-action-alleges-engine-failure/

The Theta II engine installed in the affected vehicles, according to the Kia, Hyundai Canada class action lawsuit, put new stresses on the lubrication systems. Specifically, says the complaint, “[t]he Theta II engines included a piston cooling jet attached to the main oil gallery on the Cylinder block that cools the piston by spraying a mist of engine oil onto each overhead piston. This feature also results in increased oil temperatures and contributes to more engine oil being atomized into the crankcase gases.”

The car makers did not account for the stresses of the new system, including clogging in the lubrication systems, claims the plaintiff, instead they touted the increased efficiency and lower emissions of the Theta II........................

This is not the first class action lawsuit filed over the Theta II engines. A Hyundai, Kia class action lawsuit was filed in the United States earlier this year alleging that defects cause catastrophic failures in the engine.

May 18, 2021
Hyundai-Kia’s Billion Dollar Engine Problem that Broke the NHTSA Civil Penalty Barrier
https://www.safetyresearch.net/hyundai-kias-billion-dollar-engine-problem-that-broke-the-nhtsa-civil-penalty-barrier/

In May 2016 — Kia told NHTSA — it learned about Hyundai’s extended warranty program for the Sonatas (Really? It took eight months before they knew about that?) and took another look at the field data. The claims were still low, but picking up as customer satisfaction eroded under the high repair costs for out-of-warranty vehicle owners. Kia also decided to extend its warranty to all 2011-2014 Optima owners with 2.0 or 2.4-liter GDI engines to 10 years or 120,000 miles – in other words, it did a silent recall.

The field data for Theta GDI engine claims for the 2011-2014 Sportage and Sorento vehicles was also rising – although by not as much as the Optima. In August 2016, Kia decided to launch another silent recall covering those models. Kia encouraged owners who heard engine knocking sounds to bring their vehicles in for repairs, but dealers were turning away anyone who could not produce their oil change records................

.......Kim raised his concerns that the 2015 recall did not cover the entire population of affected vehicles in the U.S. and South Korea. He also stressed that the problem was also related to the engine design, not just a manufacturing defect............

The Theta II was intended to be the engine that rocketed Hyundai Kia’s cars to the top ranks of fuel efficiency. Instead, it broke federal civil penalty records. Theta, the eighth letter of the Greek alphabet, denotes a variety of mathematical and scientific concepts, such as a plane angle in geometry, an unknown variable in trigonometry, and a potential temperature in meteorology – to name a few of the easier-to-grasp representations. Within the engineering circles at Hyundai and Kia, it might as well represent the engine from hell.

[Chocaholic]

But...they do have a cool logo.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by john70t

I have a Samsung DVD player which has lasted ten times longer than any before it. Bulletproof.

OTOH, the uncle's Samsung clothes washer sprung a main seal or filler valve leak after two years.
I didn't have time to get into it, but was disappointed the front access panel wrapped around, and was not easy to service.
(overloading or overtourqed installation might have been involved. idk.)

The Korean auto drive-trains are not known to be dependable but they did offer a 100k warranty.
Many Americans toss their new cars after a few years anyways.
Still more dependable than a Chevy.

Ah, OK, Samsung (at least their TVs) is my one exception. Samsung TVs have long been known to be excellent TVs. I don't know if they still are, but they were for a long time. I'm thinking LG, Kia, Hyundai, etc...

Yes, I've got a Samsung TV from 2007/2008. It's still ticking along just fine.

[fastfredracing]

Just from memory, I do not think the water pump is driven from the timing belt on your KIA . So no real need to do the pump at the timing belt service interval .
Of course, it would probably be easier at this conjecture as all of the belts would already be off and you would be deep into that side of the motor

[techman1]

Don't get me started on dealer pricing. Just getting over the Porsche dealers (both central Florida) pricing for a PDK service. 40K service, i can do the plugs filters, etc. PDK fluid and filter price is $1,000-1,100.
I think book time is 1 hour, and I purchased a Genuine PDK service kit from a dealer....for $250.
Really??!

[asphaltgambler]

The problem with dealers are the admin costs to cover the overhead. Just like the health care industry.......it's not the doctor's - it's everything on top of the doctor's fee...

[Dansvan]

Rant is pointless. Water pump isn’t driven by water pump
on those and cannot cause interference issues when it fails therefore no need to replace during a timing belt job.

[cabmandone]

I agree with Dan.. the water pump is definitely not driven by the water pump.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler

The problem with dealers are the admin costs to cover the overhead. Just like the health care industry.......it's not the doctor's - it's everything on top of the doctor's fee...

I recently had a similar conversation with someone about home repair contractors. The person lamented that everyone who was reportedly affordable was never available or didn’t return calls. The ones who did weren’t affordable.

The former, is likely self performing his work and is returning calls between jobs or after work. If he’s both good and reasonable, he’s busy enough servicing existing customers which doesn’t leave him much time to attend to new customers.

The latter, likely has a support staff and is always looking to add new customers because they can hire more mechanics when needed.

If I speak to my local mechanic by phone, it’s because he has his Bluetooth in his ear while he’s in the bay. If I want to talk to him while he’s not spinning a wrench or organizing parts, I have to stop by. If insisted he have an admin staff or service writer, he wouldn’t be as reasonable as he is.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Dansvan

Rant is pointless. Water pump isn’t driven by water pump
on those and cannot cause interference issues when it fails therefore no need to replace during a timing belt job.

It looks like some Kia Spectras had the water pump behind the timing belt. If that's still the case, then it seems like it would make sense to replace "while you're in there." I think this video is for 2000-2004. No idea what year the car is in the OP



I think that's the main goal of most "while you're in there" water pump replacements. If the standard is that it takes hours to get to the water pump, and the same stuff has to come off to get to the timing belt, then you may as well not pay for the the hours twice. How much would it suck to pay $1200 to do the timing belt, maybe $3-400 of that is getting to the thing, and then in 5k or 10k miles have to pay several hundred dollars to do the water pump replacement, with a large portion of the charge being to take the same crap off that was required by the timing belt and making sure that the timing is still on.

[Steve Carlton]

This info regarding Hyundai/Kia engines sure cools me off to ever considering getting one.

[Chocaholic]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I agree with Dan.. the water pump is definitely not driven by the water pump.

Welcome back!

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I agree with Dan.. the water pump is definitely not driven by the water pump.

Thank goodness we've cleared that up!

Although, if it was, that'd be pretty amazing technology. A self driven water pump. They could call it "ambition technology".

[stevej37]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I agree with Dan.. the water pump is definitely not driven by the water pump.

I would like a car driven by a car.

[Superman]

This is a 2008 Spectra, 2.0. This is an interference engine.

Water pumps which drive themselves turnout to be too unreliable, which is why they are no longer used. "interference" water pumps a very rare, in my experience. Yes, the water pump on this car is right behind the timing belt. Water pump shafts run on a bushing. Hot, pressurized water sits right behind that bushing. The bushing wears. This car has about 130K miles. A mechanic not replacing the WP during timing belt surgery would have to be ignorant or unethical or both. If you Google 2008 Kia Spectra timing belt, you will see as many "kits" as belts. The kits include a WP.

Air cooled 911s are a different story. In Twenty years and several hundred thousand miles, I have never replaced the water pump on my SC. Apparently, they are well-designed.

[vonsmog]

We got a Hyundai Elantra new with cash for clunkers in 2009 that my wife drives. Has about 90k miles on it now. Have only paid for brake parts and tires so far. Free oil changes for as long as we own the car. Hyundai Paid for a new steering column at about 70k miles and a new transmission at about 85k miles with only 2 days left in the 10 year warranty! Yes the car is cheap right out of the box, but it just keeps running, and the wife does not mind driving it.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I agree with Dan.. the water pump is definitely not driven by the water pump.*

*did you mean hot water pump?

[svandamme]

1200 for a belt?

hell, That's almost Porsche center price for a Cayman waterpump job

And I do those myself for 300 bucks ..



What's stopping anybody from doing that belt themselves?? there's a youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KTfXkbKJ-U

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Superman

This is a 2008 Spectra, 2.0. This is an interference engine.

Water pumps which drive themselves turnout to be too unreliable, which is why they are no longer used. "interference" water pumps a very rare, in my experience. Yes, the water pump on this car is right behind the timing belt. Water pump shafts run on a bushing. Hot, pressurized water sits right behind that bushing. The bushing wears. This car has about 130K miles. A mechanic not replacing the WP during timing belt surgery would have to be ignorant or unethical or both. If you Google 2008 Kia Spectra timing belt, you will see as many "kits" as belts. The kits include a WP.

which is super common on 4 bangers. I think the water pump is a "while you're in there" item on a miata too, and it's not even transverse or fwd.

Air cooled 911s are a different story. In Twenty years and several hundred thousand miles, I have never replaced the water pump on my SC. Apparently, they are well-designed.

Dude! You'd better get on that. Ticking time bomb and all that!

[masraum]

Originally Posted by svandamme

1200 for a belt?

hell, That's almost Porsche center price for a Cayman waterpump job

And I do those myself for 300 bucks ..



What's stopping anybody from doing that belt themselves?? there's a youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KTfXkbKJ-U

I haven't looked at the video. My guess is that it's a huge PITA. (almost any job on almost ever fwd car seems to be). At some point, I'll pay for convenience. but I won't pay the dealer. I don't trust any of them enough for that. I'm sure there are some that are at least competent and trustworthy, but I don't know which, and I'm not going to go looking. Finding a good independent is hard enough.