Bear Rifles

[Jeff Higgins]

O.k., so Steve asked over on the thread about the recent bear attack in B.C. just what might constitute a "bear rifle". Well, you guys know me... I might like to talk about guns every now and then... So, rather than dilute that thread, I thought I would share my opinion on the matter.

There are as many opinions regarding what might constitute a "bear rifle" as there are bear hunters. My choice is not definitive, but it did work for me. While I've shot a number of black bear (when they presented an opportunity) with whatever I had in my hands at the time when out deer or elk hunting, I always carried this when out after the big guys. It's a Winchester Model 70, one of the reintroduced "pre-64" models produced in the early '90's. I actually traded a real pre-'64 in the same caliber (and got a pretty good wad of cash in addition to this rifle) that had just become too valuable. That, and the stock just killed me, with too much drop at the comb along with a checkered steel buttplate. Scoping it meant holding my cheek way too high up, almost off of the comb, so the darn thing got a pretty good "running start" at me, much like a Mike Tyson upper cut.

I've equipped it with a Leupold 1.5 x 4 power scope, which is perfect for those river bottom alder thickets where we often go after these animals. I don't think I've ever actually turned it up off of its lowest setting. Anyway, I like the synthetic stock for the constant rain out on the coast where I used to go. I only wish it were stainless steel as well, but that was not available when I purchased this rifle. Without further ado:



My caliber of choice is the grand old .375 Holland and Holland Magnum, dating from 1912. Pretty much the original belted magnum, the belt actually serves a purpose on this one, as it serves to provide positive headspace on its extremely tapered case. That taper serves a vital role as well, allowing this to feed like butter from a magazine, and then the extract easily as well (which is often a concern on straighter walled cases in extreme tropical heat).

The traditional bullet weights are 235, 270, and 300 grains. 235 spitzers for open country lighter big game, 270 spitzers for bigger animals (like elk and moose), and 300's (usually solids, with round nosed soft points as an option) for the really big stuff up close. Myself, when Sierra introduced their 300 grain spitzer boat tail, I saw it as a "do all" for everything (except in places where my guide demanded I used solids).

Here is a loaded round and the 300 grain Sierra alongside a typical 180 grain (also a Sierra boat tailed spitzer) .30-'06 for comparison. I get just under 2,600 fps using IMR 4350 or Winchester 760, so it's right there, velocity wise, with the typical 180 grain .30-'06 load, but offers a very useful increase in bullet weight. Tough bullet, too, as I have never succeeded in recovering one from an animal. Full penetration, all the way through, always an exit wound regardless of the size of the critter or the angle at which I shot it (including the ubiquitous "Texas heart shot" on some elk-sized animals).



All in all just a fantastic hunting cartridge. I have two other rifles so chambered, a K98 Mauser with the traditional three leaf shallow deep vee rear sight and big white bead front, and a #1 Tropical Rifle with a Skinner peep sight. Those two are my "Sunday going to meeting" rifles, used when I travelled out of country and wanted to show up with something fancier than a "plastic stocked" M70.

I'll probably never use any of these again, but I will always hang onto them. Too many memories. Besides, my sons will get them when I'm gone. Here are all three, with the Winchester (in the middle) wearing, temporarily, absolutely the wrong stock for its intended purpose. Kind of a short-live union, it's long since back in the composite stock.

[masraum]

Interesting. I feel like I've also heard you talk about some sort of 44 or 45 (45-70, 45-90, 45-110 or something like that, I think there are a few sizes) that was made for rifles. I assume the rounds above likely have better, long range ballistics so are better for hunting?
And out of curiosity, if a bear burst out of the brush headed at you, how capable would something like a 12ga slug be. I assume those are big, heavy, and slow, but with enough mass to hit like a ton of bricks. I would think at close-ish range, a 12ga slug would be a fairly nasty beast against just about anything smaller than a car.

[pwd72s]

My suggestion in the other thread was the Marlin 45-70. Short length for easy handling in the alder thickets Jeff described, lever action for perhaps a rapid 2nd shot, an ass kicker out to maybe 100 yards. I'd keep it scopeless. Factory ammo...I'd have to see what's available.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/model_1895trapper/

Jeff's hunting days behind him because of changing Wash. State laws...mine because of age & physical limitations. I've started giving my firearms away to select people.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

My suggestion in the other thread was the Marlin 45-70. Short length for easy handling in the alder thickets Jeff described, lever action for perhaps a rapid 2nd shot, an ass kicker out to maybe 100 yards. I'd keep it scopeless. Factory ammo...I'd have to see what's available.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/model_1895trapper/

Jeff's hunting days behind him because of changing Wash. State laws...mine because of age & physical limitations. I've started giving my firearms away to select people.

I like these, now affiliated with Ruger.

I'v been considering the 357 Mag. Have kicked myself for years for selling my Browning B92 in that caliber.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yup, the venerable old .45-70 in a modern lever gun is an extremely popular combination these days for use on big animals in close cover. It dates from 1873 when it was originally loaded in the Trapdoor Springfield with cast lead bullets and black powder. Original loads pushed a 500 grain bullet to about 1,200 fps and a 400 grain to about 1,350. Modern high pressure smokeless loads will push 400 grain bullets to about 2,000 fps. These are only safe in modern rifles, like Marlin 1895 and newly manufactured Winchester Model 1886 rifles. The Ruger #1 is also available in .45-70 and suited for these heavy loads as well. This is, however, a relatively short range combination, maybe out to 150 yards or so before its looping trajectory becomes a hinderance.

Here are my pair of modern .45-70 lever guns, set up just as Paul suggests, with peep sights. This works really well in thick woods and the like. I've found it very effective on the animals that I've shot with it. The top one is an 1895 Marlin, bottom is a Winchester 1886.



Here is the load I use, again compared to the .30-'06. The bullet is cast from wheel weights in an RCBS mold and weighs about 410 grains. I can get this thing going about 2,000 fps from these rifles. The recoil is absolutely brutal, though, even worse than my Ruger #1 in .458 Winchester Magnum. The rifles are somewhat light and the buttstocks are too narrow. I've backed way off on my load, down to about 1,700 fps, with no noticeable loss in effectiveness but a whole lot more pleasant to shoot.



And yes, the 12 gauge slug is an extremely popular and effective bear defense combination. No one really hunts with it, due to its range limitations, but when it's close enough that that doesn't matter, few things hit harder. Lots of fishermen carry short barreled, pistol grip shotguns on the bear streams.

There are several lengths of cartridges that share that basic .45 caliber straight case, all dating from the black powder days. The .45-70 is the shortest at a case length of 2.1". Next up is the .45-90 at 2.4", then the .45-100 at 2.6", then the .45-110 at 2 7/8", and finally the .45-120 at 3.25". All but the .45-70 are too long to cycle through modern lever guns, except the Winchester 1886 can accept the .45-90. The rest are used exclusively in single shots.

Here are the .45-70, .45-90, and .45-100. The .45-70 and 90 are loaded with 400 grain hunting bullets, the .45-100 with a 540 grain match bullet. A .223 and .45 ACP are included for comparison.

[trials935]

I have a Marlin 1894 csbl .357 , stainless, grey laminate stock, Ruger made. Would this work?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by trials935

I have a Marlin 1894 csbl .357 , stainless, grey laminate stock, Ruger made. Would this work?

What a cool rifle! On my "short list" for sure. It would make a very effective deer rifle for close range, heavy cover hunting. Unfortunately, however, not nearly enough to rely upon it for protection from large bears. It just doesn't have the power and penetration to get through their thick skulls, nor their thick hides and heavy layers of fat.

Of course we could get back to the advice given by a guide in Alaska, who recommended the lowly .22 for bear defense - "just kneecap your partner...".

[cabmandone]

My nephew thought a .338 Lapua was what was needed. I thought it was overkill... but it does the job!

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by cabmandone

My nephew thought a .338 Lapua was what was needed. I thought it was overkill... but it does the job!

Your nephew loves $pending money on ammo?

All of above is strictly speculative for me...my days of packing a rifle through the brush are long gone. I've just returned from a PT session at the local hospital...trying to learn to walk again...next step to ditch the walker for a cane. Training with the cane, the PT holding on to a strap around me, I made a little over 100 feet in 3 minutes. Considering that I was 100% paralyzed on April 2nd, that's great progress...yet, depressing as hell.

IF I could afford only one "do everything" rifle & caliber? Bolt action, good variable power scope, and 7mm Remington Magnum caliber....capable of taking anything on the North American Continent.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by cabmandone

My nephew thought a .338 Lapua was what was needed. I thought it was overkill... but it does the job!

Holy smokes! Yes, overkill is an understatement. An absolutely outstanding long range match cartridge, and formerly put to great use by the U.S. military's snipers, but I believe since replaced by the .300 Winchester Magnum with some new whiz-bang ultra-high ballistic coefficient bullet. Tremendous muzzle blast and recoil. Really heavy rifles. Not very practical as a hunting rifle to walk around with. And, well, unless he handloads, big $$$ every time he pulls the trigger. Very cool stuff, but pretty much out of its element slogging through those afore mentioned river bottom alder thickets.

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Your nephew loves $pending money on ammo?

All of above is strictly speculative for me...my days of packing a rifle through the brush are long gone. I've just returned from a PT session at the local hospital...trying to learn to walk again...next step to ditch the walker for a cane. Training with the cane, the PT holding on to a strap around me, I made a little over 100 feet in 3 minutes. Considering that I was 100% paralyzed on April 2nd, that's great progress...yet, depressing as hell.

IF I could afford only one "do everything" rifle & caliber? Bolt action, good variable power scope, and 7mm Remington Magnum caliber....capable of taking anything on the North American Continent.

Like this?



Pretty much one of the all-time classic "western" hunting rifle combinations, an early 1970's Remington Model 700 BDL in 7mm Remington Magnum, fitted with a 3X9 power Leupold scope. One of the most accurate rifles I have ever owned, it will launch 160 grain Sierra boat tails into 1/2 MOA groups at will. I think it may be a bit light for the big bears (but many experienced hunters will disagree with me on that), but there is nothing better for western mule deer, elk, antelope, sheep, and stuff like that.

[pwd72s]

My scope is the same, my rifle is a Ruger M-77...I shot Norma ammo, 160 grain boat tail...scope had the duplex hairs. Worked well on Elk...never used on Bear. Funny aside...I had a Remington BDL...had it in a gun shop for some minor bluing touch up where it rubbed on the truck's rifle rack...got stolen. I had the tag, the hunt was coming up, and no shops near me had another BDL...thus, the Ruger. No complaints...it served me well for decades.

[stevej37]

I'd want a 10 gauge shotgun with triple aught buckshot

[sc_rufctr]

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Your nephew loves $pending money on ammo?

Only the first couple boxes. Then it gets less expensive. But man is that rifle fun to shoot! We were plinking at 1/2 mile.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Holy smokes! Yes, overkill is an understatement. An absolutely outstanding long range match cartridge, and formerly put to great use by the U.S. military's snipers, but I believe since replaced by the .300 Winchester Magnum with some new whiz-bang ultra-high ballistic coefficient bullet. Tremendous muzzle blast and recoil. Really heavy rifles. Not very practical as a hunting rifle to walk around with. And, well, unless he handloads, big $$$ every time he pulls the trigger. Very cool stuff, but pretty much out of its element slogging through those afore mentioned river bottom alder thickets.

When you consider his longest shot was around 50 yards... yeah.. but that's my nephew!

He reloads so yeah the cost comes down a bit.

Yeah, it's a bit big. He stand hunts up in Canada. I think he had to get a different magazine for it though due to the limitation on rounds. I think his factory mag held 5 and Canada only allows 3 or something like that.

[Por_sha911]

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT BEARS NOW HAVE RIFLES?
I ain't going into the woods any longer without another person and a .22lr

(sorry, couldn't resist - carry on)

[t6dpilot]

I used to hike a lot in the San Juans and sometimes pretty far in. Never carried a weapon and stupidly never even crossed my mind. During Covid, my wife and I spent two months in Telluride and hiked all over the place. Some of those hikes were pretty far in and we would not see another soul. Again, no carry and actually started thinking about it on occasion since we became acutely aware that we are in [I]their[I] territory. The following year we did the same thing except now experienced a couple of unnerving events with a herd of elk and a mountain lion. Two large herds of elk, both being led by large bulls, came down the opposite side of the open valley we were in and crossed the stream and worked their way up towards us with no cover. Absolutely stunning and terrifying at the same time given we did not have a weapon. This was on a trail way out in the open climbing Ajax up towards Black Bear Pass above Telluride. The second thing was seeing a mountain lion cross our trail from woods to woods.

I immediately visited the sheriff's office to inquire about open carry on public land. Yes you can, but CO is not reciprocal with IL for concealed carry. I put it on my to do list to get a 10mm handgun, but never did. We just stopped visiting and hiking the area since that town and CO in general has "changed" a lot in the 40+ years we have been going there. Question, what are your thoughts on a 10mm bear defense handgun?

[John Rogers]

Have a high powered rifle is great but that is a lot of steel to come to bear on a bear as seen on the Revenant movie as for me I would take a pair of those BFR pistols with the cylinder bored in 45-70 and having full bore hunting loads in the cylinder. I have shot a couple with both black powder loads and the heavy duty smokeless hunting rounds. The BP load was an easy two handed shooter BUT the smokeless load nearly sat me on my ass!!

I watched my late mentor Doug Knoell bore the cylinder in the one I shot as a test for him as his cancer had him pretty crippled up so no more range time for him. After 5 shots I could barely feel my fingers!
John Rogers the oldracer

[Alan A]

I’m never going to shoot a bear but I have an absolute man-crush on those 375 ruger guide guns in laminate. They come LH and I keep trying to find a reason to get one.

https://www.ruger.com/products/guideGun/models.html

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

...

BTW does anyone know what type and caliber & rifle is used in the scene? I'm guessing something rather large.