“ we don’t feel comfortable doing your MRI”

[Rot 911]

WTF???

Been having problems with my lower back since last April. Turns out I need some minor surgery to rectify things. So, of course, before I can get that done, I have to get an MRI. So my doctor calls the local imaging company that does such things. The imaging company calls me and tells me due to the amount of shrapnel in my body they don’t feel “Comfortable“ doing it, and suggests my doctor contact one of the local hospitals to do it. I told them very little of it is steel fragments. Most of it are lead pellets from, I think, an angry Cuban with a shotgun I met during operation just cause.

So now I have to wait until my doctor find a hospital that is “comfortable“ with doing my MRI. I guess things could be worse and I could be stuck with hoping the VA would do this.

[Arizona_928]

Ask for a ct....Or get wanded before you walk into the mri at the VA.


I wouldn't be upset at the imaging place. Ingestion of metal will cause a lot of down time on the machine that is making them hundreds of thousands.

[wilnj]

I think the concern is more of damage to the patient.

If the shrapnel were conductive, it may want to take the path of least resistance from where it is to the magnet.


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[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

WTF???

Been having problems with my lower back since last April. Turns out I need some minor surgery to rectify things. So, of course, before I can get that done, I have to get an MRI. So my doctor calls the local imaging company that does such things. The imaging company calls me and tells me due to the amount of shrapnel in my body they don’t feel “Comfortable“ doing it, and suggests my doctor contact one of the local hospitals to do it. I told them very little of it is steel fragments. Most of it are lead pellets from, I think, an angry Cuban with a shotgun I met during operation just cause.

So now I have to wait until my doctor find a hospital that is “comfortable“ with doing my MRI. I guess things could be worse and I could be stuck with hoping the VA would do this.

As the person having the MRI done, I'd be VERY nervous if I thought ANY of it was steel fragments.

If I thought I had any ferrous/magnetic material in my body, I'd be very, VERY nervous about getting an MRI. If I was confident that there was NOTHING ferrous/magnetic inside my body, then I wouldn't be worried.

A quick google search...

https://mriquestions.com/bullets-and-shrapnel.html

Regardless of their metallic composition, bullets, shot, and bits of shrapnel do not produce significant RF-heating due to their overall small dimensions. Projectiles composed of only non-ferromagnetic materials (e.g., lead, copper, brass, or zinc) neither undergo heating nor significant translational or or rotational forces. They should thus be considered OK to scan under any conditions. The primary safety concern is for projectiles containing ferromagnetic steel which can move significantly when placed in a strong external magnetic field.​
My basic approach to screening patients with gunshot injuries involves assessing the diagnostic benefit of MRI vs the risk. The benefit analysis depends on the particular clinical scenario and the likelihood that an alternative technique (such as CT or US) could answer the diagnostic question. My risk analysis, described below, is based upon the a priori probability that the projectile is ferromagnetic, as well as its precise anatomic location and time since injury.
Assessing the Probability of Ferromagnetism

• All bullets and shrapnel acquired in military service or overseas should be considered ferromagnetic unless proven otherwise.
• All BB's and pellets should be considered ferromagnetic.
• All shotgun pellets should be considered ferromagnetic, although about half are not. Pellets that distort into multiple irregular (non-rounded) shapes are more likely to be made of lead.
• Bullets from pistols and handguns in the USA virtually never contain steel, as their manufacture and sale (but not possession) has been a federal crime since the attempted assassination of President Reagan in 1986.
• Bullets from domestic handguns implanted more than 25 years ago should be considered ferromagnetic out of extra caution, although the probability is low.
• Armor-piercing steel-jacketed and steel-cored bullets can and are legally sold for use in rifles in the USA and elsewhere. Being so powerful/penetrating they would likely pass straight through a person unless stopped by a large bone. Although the probability is small that a domestic rifle bullet found on screening would be ferromagnetic, it should assumed to be so out of caution.
• Steel jacketed ammunition represents a large amount of "non-defense" ammunition (i.e., that meant for target practice)
• "Defense" ammunition, synonymous with hollow point or expanding ammunition, never contains a steel jacket as it does not aid in projectile expansion and fragmentation
• Some superficially located ferromagnetic pellets and bullets may be positively identified by a hand-held ferromagnetic metal detector; but a negative reading should be considered inconclusive.
• ​Some investigators have proposed using expanded range dynamic CT or dual-energy CT to determine bullet composition, but to date the results have been variable. ​

A final interesting approach has been recently proposed by Fountain et al (2021). The method involves looking at the projectile on x-ray and noting either if it is deformed (in the absence of hitting bone) or has left a debris trail. Either of these features implies a lead or other non-steel composition that is relatively "soft", having been designed to disperse its energy upon impact. If you don't see deformity or a debris trail you still may have a lead projectile, but you should probably treat it as though it might be ferromagnetic. I have not personally used this method, but it makes sense.

[Mahler9th]

I worked in the medical imaging field when CT and MRI were being developed and commercialized.

Long time ago... at the beginning.

CT and MRI systems do not ingest metal.

MRI systems of course employ very powerful magnets.

Folks were careful back then, but still there were accidents....

Folks using these things on humans must have policies and procedures and must follow them.

I hope your path to better health is fast and hassle-free.

[908/930]

If it is magnetic it can pull it through you, you probably won't like that.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by 908/930

If it is magnetic it can pull it through you, you probably won't like that.

Out of curiosity, I watched a couple videos and it doesn’t look as dramatic as it’s made to be in Hollywood (surprised?)

I think the concern is that the shrapnel may move around and the imaging center would rather that take place at a hospital where they’re equipped to deal with any problems.


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[stevej37]

The last CT scan that I had was one with the contrast.
Had to drink 2 pints of the flavored milk-shake like contrast just before the scan in the morning.
I thought my stomach was going to burst.

Also had an MRI the next day...that was super easy.

[unclebilly]

This is very much to prevent the MRI from causing further harm.

My dad was a machinist (among other things). He has had metal in his eye multiple times. I am absolutely certain that the metal in his eye resulted in his retina becoming detached in an MRI that he had done in Thailand.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

I worked in the medical imaging field when CT and MRI were being developed and commercialized.

Long time ago... at the beginning.

CT and MRI systems do not ingest metal.

MRI systems of course employ very powerful magnets.

Folks were careful back then, but still there were accidents....

Folks using these things on humans must have policies and procedures and must follow them.

I hope your path to better health is fast and hassle-free.

I kinda assumed it ingested

Here's a weighted(with steel) cavity plug after a mri.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

I worked in the medical imaging field when CT and MRI were being developed and commercialized.

Long time ago... at the beginning.

CT and MRI systems do not ingest metal.

MRI systems of course employ very powerful magnets.

Folks were careful back then, but still there were accidents....

Folks using these things on humans must have policies and procedures and must follow them.

I hope your path to better health is fast and hassle-free.

There's an article about a guy in Brazil that went in for an MRI with a a gun in his pants. The MRI set his gun off and he died. There's a guy in India that tried to carry an oxygen tank into an MRI. I think the story is that it exploded and killed him. There are other stories. I'm sure you're more than aware. I don't know if there have been any issues due to shrapnel, but I wouldn't want to test it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

This is very much to prevent the MRI from causing further harm.

My dad was a machinist (among other things). He has had metal in his eye multiple times. I am absolutely certain that the metal in his eye resulted in his retina becoming detached in an MRI that he had done in Thailand.

Ferrous metal in your eye in an MRI sounds like a VERY bad idea.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

I kinda assumed it ingested

Here's a weighted(with steel) cavity plug after a mri.

posterior plug!

[stevej37]

Why don't they question tooth crowns/fillings before an MRI?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stevej37

Why don't they question tooth crowns/fillings before an MRI?

Are any dental items anything other than gold, silver amalgam, or titanium?

[stevej37]

Gold wouldn't be attracted to a magnet?
I don't have any gold teeth...but I would ask if I did.

I have a titanium rod in my femur and asked. They said...no problem.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stevej37

Gold wouldn't be attracted to a magnet?
I don't have any gold teeth...but I would ask if I did.

I have a titanium rod in my femur and asked. They said...no problem.

It's only a big deal if it's magnetic, I believe.

What's REALLY whacky is that with a big enough magnet, you can float stuff that you wouldn't think was magnetic.



Here's a floating drop of water that is floated using only a magnet.


This was done in 1997.
https://www.science.org/content/article/floating-frogs

When pigs fly? That could be sooner than you think. A group of researchers in the Netherlands and in England has made a frog levitate in a magnetic field. Although the feat might seem no more than a curiosity, researchers say that the floating amphibians may lead the way to a cheap alternative to space-based science experiments.

Many materials are diamagnetic--that is, when placed near a magnet, their atoms fight the magnetic field, and the object tries to scoot away. If such a material is placed in a strong enough magnetic field, it levitates. Superconductors, for example, are perfect diamagnets and can levitate over even weak magnets, which is why levitating trains like those in Japan can fly over the tracks. Organic material like living cells is very weakly diamagnetic, says J. C. Maan, a physicist at the University of Nijmegen in the Netherlands. So he and colleagues employed a very strong magnet (chiefly used for crystallography experiments) to float the frog. It took 16 teslas--a very powerful field indeed--to lift the confused amphibian off the ground.

"It's a little surprising how easy it is to do this," says James Brooks, a physicist at the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory in Tallahassee, Florida. "It's not incredibly exotic equipment. Any scientist who is awake will ask `What can I do with this?' " Brooks notes that the magnetic fields might provide a way to study materials in milligravity--without sending them into space--because the levitating object is in a net zero field. Researchers could study the effects of microgravity on crystal growth and also on the growth and development of living cells, without costly space missions.

The frog, although bewildered, was apparently none the worse for wear, with "no physical sign of any malfunction," says Maan. "The idea that you can do this with a biological entity is interesting," says Robert Hollebeek, a physicist at the University of Pennsylvania. "The next question is: `Gee, can we levitate a person?' " The Nijmegen group says that it is, indeed, possible, and is investigating how other living creatures float.

[masraum]

[stevej37]

^^^ cool stuff.

Before my mri...friends told me it was agonizing because of the sound and the close enclosure.

They gave me a set of headphones and I slept through most of it.

[Rot 911]

Thanks for all of the explanations! I’ll see what the hospital has to say. I guess I should ask about the screws and plates in my neck while I am at it. The white dots by my eye socket, and down by my jaw are two of those pesky shotgun pellets.