Tesla steer by wire

[john70t]

Originally Posted by masraum

In pure "steer-by-wire" setups, the shaft will be gone.

Had a Prius apply hard outside braking during a fast highway exchange sweeper.
Had a rented Opal shut down the motor and lose all ps and brakes at the worst possible moment in the mountains with passengers.

Almost died twice there.

I will never trust a non-mechanical connection.
Not unless the mnfr accepts full-liability beforehand.

Well no. Not even with that.

[aigel]

Reminder that most, if not all modern cars and trucks are throttle by wire. Nobody worried about that?

[john70t]

Yes. But the crash site will have the key in the "off" position

[aigel]

Key? Most cars don't have an ignition key any longer either. Or a shifter that's actually connected to the transmission etc.

[sc_rufctr]

All high tech and that but... I don't trust anything I can't fix myself.

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by aigel

The handicapped argument is moot, most cars that have steering assist or self-driving features such as the Tesla already could be driven with a joystick or similar if programmed accordingly.

I am not too worried about this. This can be made reliable. This is a good article showing the reasoning and implementation. In a couple decades self driving cars will be the norm, so then nobody will care what steers it anyway.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43350167/toyota-steer-by-wire/#:~:text=Toyota%20is%20not%20the%20first,the%20whe els%2C%20just%20some%20wiring.

It's not moot. There are plenty of people out there unable to turn a steering wheel but very capable of using a joystick. Of course, for those people there are lots of considerations beyond steering but steering is the biggest obstacle. Once removed, there may be other obstacles but a joystick addresses many of them.

[porsche tech]

Probably has something to do with the cost of manufacturing…the ability to eliminate a bunch of pieces with one computer. Not unlike electric power steering.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by aigel

Reminder that most, if not all modern cars and trucks are throttle by wire. Nobody worried about that?

Less of a worry than brakes and steering.

If the throttle stops working (goes to 0%), you slowly drift down in speed, but you're still able to steer or hit the brakes. If the throttle goes to 100%, you can still hit the brakes, steer, and put the car in neutral.

If the steering stops working and centers itself, whether you can still accelerate and brake, it is unlikely to be a comfort if you're in traffic on a multilane road or in the middle of a curve or driving down a narrow road through a forest or between a bunch of buildings.
If the steering stops working and goes full right or left, whether you can still accelerate or brake under a lot of situations it's going to suck.

Braking is similar. If you're toodling down the freeway or a street in a busy retail area or a residential area, and you suddenly find that you have no brakes, that's likely to suck. Hopefully, there would still be some sort of mechanical "emergency brake". At least you still probably have steering and the transmission (assuming it's a car where you can put the tranny in a lower gear than "D".

Brakes-by-wire without adequate redundancy in the system would suck.
Steering-by-wire without adequate redundancy in the system would likely be as bad or maybe even worse.
Throttle by wire failure would also suck, but likely not nearly as bad as either of the other two.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've had throttle-by-wire since about 2000 (I think our first may have been a '97 Pontiac Grand Am).

[masraum]

Originally Posted by aigel

The handicapped argument is moot, most cars that have steering assist or self-driving features such as the Tesla already could be driven with a joystick or similar if programmed accordingly.

Handicapped capable/modified vehicles are still using the same systems as the rest of us, just with a mechanical assist. I'm guessing that they probably amount to a tiny fraction of the vehicles on the road today.

I am not too worried about this. This can be made reliable. This is a good article showing the reasoning and implementation. In a couple decades self driving cars will be the norm, so then nobody will care what steers it anyway.

Yes, they can be made reliable, as previously stated, many planes have been fly by wire for many years. My concern is will they have the appropriate level of redundancy and reliability built in like a plane or with the manufacturers build them "good enough" based on cost?

[Tobra]

The second thing is it

[GH85Carrera]

At a recent track day I was having a blast out there in my analog car. At the driver's meting before the event the instructor admonished everyone to read their owners manual to turn off a lot of the anti crash systems and nannies. He said many cars will think they going to crash and kill the power, and applying the brakes when need to accelerate. The crash avoidance systems can be a real problem on track.

Now I admit, a track day is not much related to driving on the street, or at least no one should drive like that on the street, but lots of computer assisted anti crash systems on modern cars can indeed change your car's steering, throttle and brakes against your driver input and what you are trying to do.

Many cars now have lane assist and will steer the car back into your lane.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Many cars now have lane assist and will steer the car back into your lane.

The wife's Outback has lane assist and will brake to avoid an accident. Lane assist is only enabled sometimes, and there's a button on the steering wheel to disable it completely, and even when enabled, you can override it by turning the steering wheel.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Tobra

That, and the hydraulic braking system is superior to mechanical in many ways.

The same cannot be said for steer by wire

depends on what you mean by "supririor" right?

they want to do this, because its easier to implement full computer control. its drive by wire, but for the front wheels. drive by wire, we might all hate, but is saved hundreds if not thousands of lives, because the reason to implement drive by wire, is so that the computer has full control of the throttle plate. basically all traction control systems use this.

so, while i dont like the idea of steer by wire, it too will probably save thousands more lives because now you can have the computer take over when people are doing dumb **** with the wheels of their car.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

depends on what you mean by "supririor" right?

they want to do this, because its easier to implement full computer control. its drive by wire, but for the front wheels. drive by wire, we might all hate, but is saved hundreds if not thousands of lives, because the reason to implement drive by wire, is so that the computer has full control of the throttle plate. basically all traction control systems use this.

so, while i dont like the idea of steer by wire, it too will probably save thousands more lives because now you can have the computer take over when people are doing dumb **** with the wheels of their car.

Certainly mustangs could benefit from it!

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by masraum

Certainly mustangs could benefit from it!

right?

i feel like all the outrage around this kind of stuff files for me under the "car people realizing that most people arnt/dont want to be car people and that age where everyone had to be a car person is long over and its time to come to terms with that"

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

right?

i feel like all the outrage around this kind of stuff files for me under the "car people realizing that most people arnt/dont want to be car people and that age where everyone had to be a car person is long over and its time to come to terms with that"

My concern is that the systems have to be built to be redundant and resilient enough, not to a price point.

You potentially need to be able to steer a car when the motor is off or there's some sort of electrical glitch.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by masraum

My concern is that the systems have to be built to be redundant and resilient enough, not to a price point.

You potentially need to be able to steer a car when the motor is off or there's some sort of electrical glitch.

to the OEM and the lives saved, that doesnt outweigh the inconvenience of pushing the car the car around when the battery is flat.

im not in favor, i bought a 99 because i wanted a real throttle cable and no PSM.

but you and I are not the audience for these cars. and its foolish to think we should gamble thousands of lives, demanding our inconvenience should be more important. its not.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

to the OEM and the lives saved, that doesnt outweigh the inconvenience of pushing the car the car around when the battery is flat.

im not in favor, i bought a 99 because i wanted a real throttle cable and no PSM.

but you and I are not the audience for these cars. and its foolish to think we should gamble thousands of lives, demanding our inconvenience should be more important. its not.

Right, but if the redundancy and resiliency isn't up to the task, then there's a chance that lives and money(probably a bigger driver than the former) won't be saved.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by masraum

Right, but if the redundancy and resiliency isn't up to the task, then there's a chance that lives and money(probably a bigger driver than the former) won't be saved.

that wont happen. the feds wont let it.

[aschen]

Several to many cars are brake by wire already as I am sure most of y'all are aware, new corvette is one of them.

Steering by wire suprises me exactly 0%. Those of you who mess with rc aircraft or planes know about alot of the advantages, variable ratio curves, exponentials, automatic stability and counter steering. Hell sport mode may actually do something real in many more cars.

It will be good for 98.2% of drivers who meet the following criteria: don't work on their own cars, and don't care much about drivers joy. The rest of us 1.8 have already been screwed on these factors and it will continue to get worse.

Decent steering died about a decade or so with EPS anyways. Steering feel is one of the things I really miss about my lotus now that it has been traded for a cayman gts. I am told the cayman has one of the better eps systems, but it isnt even on the same planet as the manual lotus rack.


Thankfull for us enthusiests alot of decent sports cars were built between around 1995-2015 ish, hopefully the supply doesnt run out in my life time.