.22 for self defense?

[Jeff Higgins]

Well, since it is now early winter, this might be a good time to consider clothing. Not the defender's, but the perp's. Many of the centerfire rounds for which the smaller concealment guns are chambered will often fail to penetrate heavy winter clothing, especially when layered. Heavy wool sweaters covered by heavy wool overcoats, with maybe another layer or two of something else, have been shown to effectively stop rounds up to the .380 ACP and such. Even 9mm with lightweight hollow points will sometimes fail to penetrate. Oh, they will leave one hell of a mark, but that's not what we are after.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Two entirely different requirements. Yes, .22's are deadly, but they do not stop fights.

I suspect that depends upon the person being shot. A determined person that doesn't care about being shot, you want/need the most powerful cartridge you can manage. I think those folks are probably a minority of bad guys. I think most folks don't want to get shot and when you start shooting at them, will turn and run. But, yes, absolutely, there are folks that will get shot multiple times and not stop until you incapacitate them or they bleed out. Videos of both situation are all over YT.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by masraum

I suspect that depends upon the person being shot. A determined person that doesn't care about being shot, you want/need the most powerful cartridge you can manage. I think those folks are probably a minority of bad guys. I think most folks don't want to get shot and when you start shooting at them, will turn and run. But, yes, absolutely, there are folks that will get shot multiple times and not stop until you incapacitate them or they bleed out. Videos of both situation are all over YT.

Unfortunately, you don't get to choose which one you will face.

[stevej37]

I have a 22 LR and I always go for the head shot to be sure. I don't care to see them suffer.
I have shot a few in the stomach and they just crawl away.

Trying to keep the numbers down because they are living in my shed.

[flipper35]

To add to Higgins comments. A .22lr will bounce off the chest of a turkey. Not that people wear feathers, but you get the idea.

[gacook]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

Did you know there are purses just for CCW? For me, it doesn't matter if there is a firearm inside, I do not leave my purse anywhere. I always have a crossbody so I can keep it close, at chest level.

And, I don't mind being "mansplained". I might tell you your wrong but I may learn something. And I am open to the learning.

Don't take this the wrong way...but I love women like you. Seemingly quite knowledgeable but willing to admit you may not know everything and are willing to learn.

Hell, not just women...that's an admirable trait amongst men, too.

[matthewb0051]

An attorney I know got a not guilty verdict on a 'murder' that was committed with a 22lr pistol.

The defendant was leasing commercial property to the deceased who's business was failing. They went to the property to get some things when the deceased got physical and threatened defendant's life and his grandson's life. The deceased made several attempts to bum rush the defendant. One thing led to another and defendant pulled out a 22lr pistol and hit him twice, killing him.

[Tobra]

How did they get charged with murder in an obvious case of self defense, happen in California?

Originally Posted by flipper35

To add to Higgins comments. A .22lr will bounce off the chest of a turkey. Not that people wear feathers, but you get the idea.

Will it bounce off a turkey from 10 feet away?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Well, since it is now early winter, this might be a good time to consider clothing. Not the defender's, but the perp's. Many of the centerfire rounds for which the smaller concealment guns are chambered will often fail to penetrate heavy winter clothing, especially when layered. Heavy wool sweaters covered by heavy wool overcoats, with maybe another layer or two of something else, have been shown to effectively stop rounds up to the .380 ACP and such. Even 9mm with lightweight hollow points will sometimes fail to penetrate. Oh, they will leave one hell of a mark, but that's not what we are after.

147gn 9mm flat nose FTW.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Unfortunately, you don't get to choose which one you will face.

Nope

[masraum]

Originally Posted by matthewb0051

An attorney I know got a not guilty verdict on a 'murder' that was committed with a 22lr pistol.

The defendant was leasing commercial property to the deceased who's business was failing. They went to the property to get some things when the deceased got physical and threatened defendant's life and his grandson's life. The deceased made several attempts to bum rush the defendant. One thing led to another and defendant pulled out a 22lr pistol and hit him twice, killing him.

Was the "not guilty" because it was self defense or because a Texas judge figured any Texan using 22 didn't really mean to hurt the guy that badly.

"You used a 22? I guess you were just tryin' ta warn him off, not hurt 'em and definitely not kill 'em or you'd ah used something startin' with a '4' or endin' with 'magnum'."

[id10t]

Originally Posted by flipper35

To add to Higgins comments. A .22lr will bounce off the chest of a turkey. Not that people wear feathers, but you get the idea.

I've seen turkey take a 40 cal 180gr XTP moving at 1500 fps right in the boiler room and fly off...

[Bill Douglas]

Mossad were rather a fan of the .22LR.

They used a Beretta model 70 and would shoot someone at point blank range. Without much noise and with a bit of confusion as to what had just happened, the shooter would stroll way and disappear into the crowd.

[pwd72s]

One thing I do know...I can make much tighter groups with my Browning Challenger .22 than I can with my Browning Hi-Power 9mm. Both made in Belgium..old school stuff. Don't think being hit with either would be pleasant.

(edit) I've often wondered which would be best if bad stuff happened...I also could add an old Ruger "security six" (6" barrel .357 Magnum revolver) into the mix. All have good points.

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by masraum

Was the "not guilty" because it was self defense or because a Texas judge figured any Texan using 22 didn't really mean to hurt the guy that badly.

"You used a 22? I guess you were just tryin' ta warn him off, not hurt 'em and definitely not kill 'em or you'd ah used something startin' with a '4' or endin' with 'magnum'."

Jury verdict...

BTW, the defendant was retired Green Beret. Now we know how uses a .22

https://www.pleasantonexpress.com/articles/garza-found-not-guilty-in-shooting-death/

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by masraum

147gn 9mm flat nose FTW.

In my humble opinion (but utter lack of experience in this matter), the flat nose, or "truncated cone" bullet is hands down the very best for defensive use out of any autoloader. It "cuts" (like a paper punch) a hole, removing tissue, which results in massive hemorrhaging. A roundnose merely opens a hole (think punching hole in a piece of paper with a pencil), which closes back on itself, limiting bleeding.

This effect was learned by, and put to use by, the Germans in WWI. They came out with a truncated cone style bullet for their 9mm Luger sidearms. The affect was so much more lethal than the old roundnose bullet that the Allies quickly decreed that any German caught with that ammo would be summarily executed.

My own experience is, of course, in hunting big game with revolvers. I've touted their virtues here before, but I will say again that nothing kills better than the old Elmer Keith designed "semi-wadcutter". It is essentially that old truncated cone with a second sharp shoulder.

Here are a couple of examples. On the left are truncated cone bullets. Both weigh 300 grains. The one on the left is for the .45 Colt, the one on the right (with the gas check) for the .44 mag. On the right are Keith type semi wadcutters, again with the .45 Colt on the left and .44 mag on the right. Both weigh 250 grains. You can see the second sharp shoulder, on the front driving band ahead of the beveled crimping groove. These things penetrate like nothing else, cutting a very well defined hole along the way. Absolutely the deadliest handgun bullet I have ever used.

Originally Posted by masraum

Was the "not guilty" because it was self defense or because a Texas judge figured any Texan using 22 didn't really mean to hurt the guy that badly.

"You used a 22? I guess you were just tryin' ta warn him off, not hurt 'em and definitely not kill 'em or you'd ah used something startin' with a '4' or endin' with 'magnum'."

The late, great Col Jeff Cooper used to say "if you shoot someone with one of those sub caliber pistols and he ever finds out about it, he's going to be very angry with you. And you'll have nothing with which to defend yourself..."

[Racerbvd]

Yes,a 22 is able to play pinball in the belly, and is the choice among close quarter assassins.




But if you wear glasses and can't see clearly, but know that the threat is real, I prefer knock down power.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Tobra

How did they get charged with murder in an obvious case of self defense, happen in California?



Will it bounce off a turkey from 10 feet away?

I will verify with dad, but if I recall he was 20-25 yards away. Savage pump rifle with .22lr.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Mossad were rather a fan of the .22LR.

They used a Beretta model 70 and would shoot someone at point blank range. Without much noise and with a bit of confusion as to what had just happened, the shooter would stroll way and disappear into the crowd.

Point blank in the common vernacular or by definition? By definition, point blank only means the range in which you don't have to adjust point of aim to hit what you are aiming at. Though the use today has been changing the definition.

[chuckr]

My newest addition.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by flipper35

Point blank in the common vernacular or by definition?

Probably best if you google it. You'll get all the answers you need.