Indycar 2024

[pwd72s]

What? Are you guys saying that there might be cheating in racing?

[URY914]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

What? Are you guys saying that there might be cheating in racing?

There's a first time for everything.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

Tim Cindric said the normal push to pass software was overwritten for hybrid testing . And when that hybrid testing concluded they forgot to load the " race " push to pass software . For an organization as well run as Penske I have a hard time believing that . But anything is possible .

Yeah, but the drivers had to push the button. I don't care if the software was from a sports car, it is a manual process to use it. They were either misinformed or out of bounds.

I still say this much time after the fact renders the decision invalid.

[cockerpunk]

not pushing the button is why will power was not penalized.

i have always liked will power.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Yeah, but the drivers had to push the button. I don't care if the software was from a sports car, it is a manual process to use it. They were either misinformed or out of bounds.

I still say this much time after the fact renders the decision invalid.

Bingo! What are we going to do, start analyzing all the races from last year? From 5 years ago? The computer data is there. It can be done. At least demonstrate that the infraction was the direct cause of the win.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

not pushing the button is why will power was not penalized.

i have always liked will power.

And your point is?

[astrochex]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Bingo! What are we going to do, start analyzing all the races from last year? From 5 years ago? The computer data is there. It can be done. At least demonstrate that the infraction was the direct cause of the win.

Doesn’t matter if the infraction was the direct cause of the win. Penske broke the rules. I’m glad Indycar incurred a penalty that had weight.

[rfuerst911sc]

I wonder if it took this long because the infraction was against Penske race team and Roger Penske owns the series . Meaning they had to dot every I and cross every T . I would imagine there were a lot of discussions to make sure the evidence was crystal clear and could be proven .

To be honest it's refreshing to know that the rules are enforced no matter who you are . I wish it wouldn't have come this late but I am also glad it wasn't swept under the rug .

[herr_oberst]

I think Cindric is probably being honest when he says the teams forgot to reflash the computers after testing.*

I think the drivers were surprised to find that the push to pass hack was available in St Pete, and only Will Power was able to keep temptation at bay?

I'm sure RP is plenty pissed that this mistake happened, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was on his orders that the news broke now, not during the month of May so he could corral the narrative, at least a little, before Indy.

* Any whiff of sweeping this under the rug during the buildup to Indy would be a PR nightmare for the Team, the Series, the Indy 500 and Roger Penske.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

I think Cindric is probably being honest when he says the teams forgot to reflash the computers after testing.*

I think the drivers were surprised to find that the push to pass hack was available in St Pete, and only Will Power was able to keep temptation at bay?

I'm sure RP is plenty pissed that this mistake happened, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was on his orders that the news broke now, not during the month of May so he could corral the narrative, at least a little, before Indy.

* Any whiff of sweeping this under the rug during the buildup to Indy would be a PR nightmare for the Team, the Series, the Indy 500 and Roger Penske.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PTP is not like F1 DRS that is controlled by electronics placed at the track. Only then do they have the option to use it. Indycar PTP is available any time, any where, just limited to so many seconds. So it the driver needs it in a corner or at the beginning, middle or end of the long straight (or the whole distance) he selects when to use it and when to turn if off.

Seems odd that an Indycar driver would use PTP at the start. Maybe I read that the PTP was used too early like before they got to the start/finish line.

Doesn't matter. The point is that in the lower gears those cars can light up the tires. Why would a driver need more power while just getting going? In my experience just watching it seems that PTP is primarily used at high speeds to ward off a challenge for position or to overtake. Not coming off corners.

Like I said, correct me if need be.

[rfuerst911sc]

Milt according to this article PTP is controlled by the series . The officials at the track and the software in the cars does not allow PTP to be used until specific spots on the track . In the case of the Penske cars PTP was available anywhere because of the hybrid testing software load that was left in the cars . At least that's my understanding of this article .

https://racer.com/2024/04/24/team-penske-hit-with-penalties-over-push-to-pass-use-oward-declared-st-petersburg-winner/

[astrochex]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PTP is not like F1 DRS that is controlled by electronics placed at the track. Only then do they have the option to use it. Indycar PTP is available any time, any where, just limited to so many seconds. So it the driver needs it in a corner or at the beginning, middle or end of the long straight (or the whole distance) he selects when to use it and when to turn if off.

Seems odd that an Indycar driver would use PTP at the start. Maybe I read that the PTP was used too early like before they got to the start/finish line.

Doesn't matter. The point is that in the lower gears those cars can light up the tires. Why would a driver need more power while just getting going? In my experience just watching it seems that PTP is primarily used at high speeds to ward off a challenge for position or to overtake. Not coming off corners.

Like I said, correct me if need be.

This is not true, I will find the regulation later.

[greglepore]

PTP is disabled remotely by race control for 30(?) seconds after start and restarts to prevent first corner chaos and wrecks. The process is complicated, but its done by radio communication from race control to the lap timer on the car (software accessible by teams) which then communicates with the ecu (software locked down). Could have been honest mistake, but it was clearly viewable on the teams telemetry. They knew. Were the obligated to say something?
Did it affect the results? Newgarden ran away from the field on restarts at St Pete, you tell me.
Now they just need to find the fuel in Dixon's fire extinguisher bottle.

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by astrochex

Doesn’t matter if the infraction was the direct cause of the win. Penske broke the rules. I’m glad Indycar incurred a penalty that had weight.

I agree - if it were discovered within a reasonable time frame after the race. 2 races and 6-7 weeks later is too much time passed. Bad optics for the fans. Make it a financial or points penalty if anything, but don't change the winner.

OTOH, maybe there's still a chance to reinstate Mario Andretti's 1981 Indy 500 win after they gave it to cheating Bobby Unser

[Zeke]

I'm also looking for that rule and all I find is 150 to 200 seconds to be used at the driver's discretion in up to 20 second intervals. One source said drivers were limited to using the PTP feature 10 times per race. The Meyer Shank mechanic mentioned using PTP out of corners.

Up in the air for me.

[astrochex]

From motorsport.com https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news/penske-newgarden-loses-st-petersburg-indycar-race/10602791/

Penske violated two of the following rules:
Rule 14.19.15. An indicator to enable Push to Pass will be sent via CAN communication from the timing and scoring beacon on board the Car to the team data logger. This signal must be passed on to the ECU unmodified and uninterrupted during all Road and Street Course Events.

Rule 14.19.16. Race Starts and any Race Restart that occurs before the lap prior to the white flag or prior to three minutes remaining in a timed Race Event will have the Push to Pass system disabled and will be enabled for a given Car once that Car reaches the alternate Start/Finish line.

Per the rulebook, the violation is considered a Race Procedure Penalty (9.2.2.), which includes the right to reposition the driver and car in the postings or results, with a disqualification (9.2.2.6) that includes the forfeit of points and awards.

[Zeke]

Ok, that's clear. No mention of limiting to "specific spots on the track" other than jumping the gun at the start/finish. Apparently that exactly what 2 Penske drivers did.

I still wonder about 60 more HP when getting up to speed but the starts were probably fairly fast given the lead car usually gasses it off the last corner coming on to the straight. They don't wait to get to the line to hit the throttle.

All good here now. I'm with Curt though, 6 weeks later?

[astrochex]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

I agree - if it were discovered within a reasonable time frame after the race. 2 races and 6-7 weeks later is too much time passed. Bad optics for the fans. Make it a financial or points penalty if anything, but don't change the winner.

OTOH, maybe there's still a chance to reinstate Mario Andretti's 1981 Indy 500 win after they gave it to cheating Bobby Unser

I don’t have an issue with this timeframe given how they discovered the infraction. It seems entirely reasonable to look at data from the prior race to confirm the offense.

[chapo]

Super bad optics for the series and Penske. With the amount of engineers monitoring every minute detail of data on the team side and Chevrolet this was not a secret. Newgarden seems to have discovered it first and abused the privilege. Now the questions loom, how far back does the abuse go? One race, one year? Podcasts and articles by Racer and others basically poo poo the hybrid testing excuse.

[rfuerst911sc]

Team Penske redeemed themselves today . Good job 👏