Any information about the Pacific Palisades Fire

[speeder]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Back to better design of the "system" that that failed/ran out of water. According to a firefighter that was at the Palisades fire 'these homes were not typical. They were very large (15,000 ft mansions) and hydrants were over 1000 ft apart with only a 2.5 inch warf hydrants instead of 4 inches meaning there was not enough flow to extinguish fires. The homes were commercial sized buildings. The firefighters could have saved a lot more if they had been able to put up a water curtain but couldn't because they ran out of water.' If this is the case I think that code should require the appropriately sized hydrants...if for nothing else, the safety of responders. Of course, one would still need sufficient water (more than the tiny reservoirs in the Palisades and the dry Santa Ynez Reservoir could supply this time).

Yep, there is going to be a cruel reckoning when this thing is autopsied soon enough. The water pressure issue will be huge, as well as the FD’s initial preparedness and response time. The Palisades in general are far from most parts of LA in terms of travel time and the Palisades Highlands, (where the fire started), is another long hike by car from the main part of it. They should have had at least one engine up there but they did not. The Highlands are a newer development, (‘60s or ‘70s), the main part of PP is probably 100 years old but did not look it because of so many tear-downs and newer houses built.

The Highlands are up a long, steep road that goes maybe 5 miles(?) into the mountainside and has fancy subdivisions off the main road on both sides. The love of my life grew up there in the ‘70s and went to Pali High, so it’s at least that old.

Anyhow, it’s important to realize that this was a suburban and urban wildfire, (actually both big fires), driven by up to 100mph winds. Neither one was a forest fire by any definition. At no point did they run out of water, they ran out of water pressure. There is a difference.

They will be looking at the water grid but it’s probably impossible to upgrade it to handle any conceivable urban fire with hundreds of buildings burning at once. Can they improve it? For sure.

[group911@aol.co]

And they will improve it. But in actuality, the system they need is beyond anything that can be practically feasible. Grid systems at the top of canyons are probably beyond doable. Massive elevated water storage would probably be the most doable so you could at least rely on gravity for pressure. You create about half a pound of pressure for every foot of elevation and you should probably try for 100 pounds of pressure. Now figure out how to put millions of gallons of water 200 feet above the highest point.

Originally Posted by speeder

Yep, there is going to be a cruel reckoning when this thing is autopsied soon enough. The water pressure issue will be huge, as well as the FD’s initial preparedness and response time. The Palisades in general are far from most parts of LA in terms of travel time and the Palisades Highlands, (where the fire started), is another long hike by car from the main part of it. They should have had at least one engine up there but they did not. The Highlands are a newer development, (‘60s or ‘70s), the main part of PP is probably 100 years old but did not look it because of so many tear-downs and newer houses built.

The Highlands are up a long, steep road that goes maybe 5 miles(?) into the mountainside and has fancy subdivisions off the main road on both sides. The love of my life grew up there in the ‘70s and went to Pali High, so it’s at least that old.

Anyhow, it’s important to realize that this was a suburban and urban wildfire, (actually both big fires), driven by up to 100mph winds. Neither one was a forest fire by any definition. At no point did they run out of water, they ran out of water pressure. There is a difference.

They will be looking at the water grid but it’s probably impossible to upgrade it to handle any conceivable urban fire with hundreds of buildings burning at once. Can they improve it? For sure.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by speeder

... At no point did they run out of water, they ran out of water pressure. There is a difference. ...

This is the first that I have heard that. I just took what the firefighters reported as accurate (as with the quote above). Assumed that using the word "pressure" was simply a lack of preciseness.

The term "volume" has been used throughout this thread. It seems to me that a loss of pressure would indicate running out of water as the other variables are seemingly fixed.

How would they run out of pressure without running out of water? The water lines are reported to be gravity fed. Were there large pumps that failed?

In a gravity-fed system, the pressure is primarily determined by hydrostatic pressure (the height of the water above the outlet). The pressure at the hydrant/outlet would be calculated using the formula: Pressure (in Pascals) = density of water (approximately 1000 kg/m³)*acceleration due to gravity (approximately 9.81 m/s²)*height of the water column (meters).

Running out of water would cause a loss of pressure and volume.

[gregpark]

A fire with plenty of dry fuel that's driven by 80mph winds in a desert is unstoppable, regardless of how much water or pressure or how many fire fighters on site

[gregpark]

Those guys did a great job. All LA needed was 12,300 more guys just like them

[drew1]

Originally Posted by speeder

Can you imagine people in CA. telling people in Kansas or Oklahoma that they really fk'ed up their tornado preparedness? Yeah, me neither.

Sure can. I've known some 'know it alls' from California.

Glad to see the spared helping out those who weren't, gathering of points for relief supplies, etc. Speaks well for the LA people.

We will find some who refuse to "let a crisis go to waste" I am sure.

Right now emphasis needs to be on saving lives, putting the fires out, and relief to survivors. Now is not the time for blaming it on people. Lessons learned can be looked at when its over.

[TimT]

Did anyone notice that the guy in the above video was using a pump from Harbor Freight? it appears the hoses and nozzle were sourced there as well..

[speeder]

I’m out in Malibu right now, first time but beyond the fire zone. Came over the mountain from the 101 to give a kid a ride back to Pepperdine from LAX. Long ride, luckily a great kid from Virginia. I rolled the dice on that one. 👍

I’ll try to get some photos along the way if they let me through going south on PCH. So far, all I’ve see is about a zillion fire trucks from everywhere in the west. ⛑️


The unburned part of Malibu still looks good:

[Mahler9th]

There are likely already myriad lawsuits.

I suspect that in the end there will be investigations and reports. And some content in reports will be disputed.

New approaches and procedures.

Arguments, compromises and so on.

From a "design" standpoint, I wonder what the specs have been or are with respect to being able to "more successfully" mitigate risks for situations where air support is not available for extended periods of time at the worst possible stages of such incidents.

[HobieMarty]

They call it paradise, I don't know why
You call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye.

https://youtu.be/4ETN21RZwwI?si=1YD66msmHZLgLK58

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[gregpark]

Heavy rain earlier put the brush up over your head and after a couple months of no rain it was a disaster waiting to happen. I'll bet the wild foliage near houses is attended to more astutely in the future

[gregpark]

Like dominoes. A structure fire is so hot the next door house is doomed... But the brush fire started it all

[jyl]

Interesting to see the reports about the houses that survived likely due to their design.

No overhanging eaves, sleek exteriors without nooks for embers to pile up, inflammable roofing and exterior sheathing, fire-resistant venting, double-paned heat-resistant glass in windows, no curtains, dryscaping, etc. They are modern looking but attractive. Gonna be a lot of similar designs going back up.

The thing is, those designs are also at odds with what you otherwise want in that climate. It is hot, you want overhangs shading windows and walls, shade structure over patios, vegetation filtering sunlight. The traditional “California bungalow” has deep eaves and plantings for a reason. Also, by the ocean, you want large windows that can open wide for cross-breezes.

I wonder if there is a way to have deep shady overhangs that are still fire-resistant? Suppose you had an overhang of sloped steel slats, widely spaced so wind and fire blow through, but angled to block the sun? Is there a way to have large openable windows that are fire-resistant? Suppose you had steel shutters that roll down to cover the windows, kind of like security shutters on some streetfront retail spaces in sketchy cities?

[Noah930]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/million-dollar-listing-star-says-193511626.html

Interesting story. Many who lost their homes in the Palisades may not return. Had a conversation today with a friend. She doesn't live in the Palisades, but we talked about how people (displaced by the fire) we know are moving down to Newport Beach. They're specifically picking that because it's the OC (politics), it's a beach city, lower fire risk, and it matches their upscale lifestyles.

[jyl]

Parts of the Malibu/Palisades area has burned before. Any who leave are replaced by new people - living in the hills with a view of the ocean is pretty special.

[Tobra]

Overhang that is fire resistant. How well would a tin roof burn?

You can build and landscape to be fire resistant, to the point of practically being fireproof

[mtnrat]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Overhang that is fire resistant. How well would a tin roof burn?

You can build and landscape to be fire resistant, to the point of practically being fireproof

And something as simple as a pile of goats in the scrub would go a long way towards fire proofing that.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by jyl

Interesting to see the reports about the houses that survived likely due to their design.

No overhanging eaves, sleek exteriors without nooks for embers to pile up, inflammable roofing and exterior sheathing, fire-resistant venting, double-paned heat-resistant glass in windows, no curtains, dryscaping, etc. They are modern looking but attractive. Gonna be a lot of similar designs going back up.

The thing is, those designs are also at odds with what you otherwise want in that climate. It is hot, you want overhangs shading windows and walls, shade structure over patios, vegetation filtering sunlight. The traditional “California bungalow” has deep eaves and plantings for a reason. Also, by the ocean, you want large windows that can open wide for cross-breezes.

I wonder if there is a way to have deep shady overhangs that are still fire-resistant? Suppose you had an overhang of sloped steel slats, widely spaced so wind and fire blow through, but angled to block the sun? Is there a way to have large openable windows that are fire-resistant? Suppose you had steel shutters that roll down to cover the windows, kind of like security shutters on some streetfront retail spaces in sketchy cities?

I've been thinking about things that could retract, like overhangs. Also walls that could go up around the house with fire suppression system inside them for instances where embers could get in between the two.

And just build homes like the Germans do.

[jyl]

I was thinking you don’t want to trap and concentrate flames, burning material, heat under a solid overhang/eave?

Even if the exterior sheathing of the house is non-combustible, there’s joints, gaps, caulking, windows, and the internal structure (studs, etc) to worry about.

Here is a good guide I found

https://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/pdf/8393.pdf

[wdfifteen]

I listened to a podcast about private and insurance company fire departments that go out pro-actively when there is a severe fire danger. Those embers are so relentless that they will go up your dryer vent - so they go around taping up dryer vents (in addition to a lot of other things0.