Is Muscle dead?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Car culture isn’t dead, but YOUR particular flavor may be dead (or dying). I think classic muscle cars look and sound amazing, but I’ve driven enough to conclude they drive like an old farm truck. Sitting around a parking lot in a lawn chair listening to do-wop music in a sea of Camaros and Mustangs sounds horrible. Hell I’m 45, I’m not even that young! My son is a 15 year old car nut, classic muscle cars don’t even turn his head. He really wants an AMG Mercedes or maybe a C6 Corvette for us to build out, we’ll see.

[ted]

For my whole life I have been at the tail end of all car interests it seems.

Never see classics on the road much here in So Cal.
I don't like cars and coffee meets, rather meet at a road race track.

Years ago 1930s and 40s street rods were so popular we had a cut off no cars newer than 54.
The VWs were fun and popular for years too.
The old 911s were fun on track and affordable then they shot up in price and became common as static car show displays.
For the last 12 years have been enjoying racing old V8 IMSA GTO or GT1 cars.
The market for those is softer now than it was 10 years ago.
It's not my 401k so no concern as an investment, just a little disappointing that most don't have the time, money, interest or driving experience to give it a try.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by ted

For the last 12 years have been enjoying racing old V8 IMSA GTO or GT1 cars.
The market for those is softer now than it was 10 years ago.
It's not my 401k so no concern as an investment, just a little disappointing that most don't have the time, money, interest or driving experience to give it a try.

I need to figure out how to get them licensed so I can use one as a commuter car!

I don't have the time or disposable income to spend that much time or money on something that can't be driven on the street. I'd love to be able to spend a bunch of time on the track in an amazing car.

[DWBOX2000]

I do love going to the track and watching others doing the do. Me, I struggle with spending money to just beat the snort out of it and dump more money. Maybe I just don’t have that kind of disposable income. I am thankful for those that do though. Sitting at the hill at limerock under a tree with food/drinks is just heavenly to me. I don’t do enough. Regarding Car shows, enjoy most of the people and the creativity.
Weekend is upon us, drive on and enjoy.

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by DWBOX2000

Maybe they are just doing different things and we just don’t get invited.

I agree with this. Younger people don't want to hang out with the old foggies in the local Camaro Club, and I've never been invited to a street takeover. The later seem pretty popular with twenty-somethings car enthusiasts around here.

[DWBOX2000]

There doing, just not with us. Thompson raceway last Saturday.

[DWBOX2000]

Sorry, picture didn’t work. bunch of dude (ettes) going sideways in a corner.

[ted]

What makes a good street takeover car?

Stolen
4 door for riders
Soft and no sharp edges on the rear quarters
No lic plates
Tinted winfows
Quick steer rack ratio
Tight turning radius
Avoid long wheelbase
Carry no money while in car
Fireworks and
Pistols waving
Girls not needed
Hoodies

Wut else?

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by ted

What makes a good street takeover car?

Stolen
4 door for riders
Soft and no sharp edges on the rear quarters
No lic plates
Tinted winfows
Quick steer rack ratio
Tight turning radius
Avoid long wheelbase
Carry no money while in car
Fireworks and
Pistols waving
Girls not needed
Hoodies

Wut else?

Need the 4 drunk dudes with warrants inside.

rjp

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

**SNORT**

whats funny?

hell, the honda mini van beats a E type and 356 around cones too, off the showroom floor on stock tires:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/




the difference is no one in imported sports cars is dumb enough to make the absolutly stupid claims people make about old muscle cars. you know, like afterburn does.

what, was this news to you randy?

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

A microwave cooks a steak faster than a charcoal grill, but I would still rather have a grilled steak any day of the week.
The young punks will never understand how good it feels to build something out of nothing, trial and error tuning to get it right, the enjoyment of having actual friends show up for a engine swap and (instead of their “Gamer” friends on line)what it’s like to get grease under your fingernails and how good it feels, taking the test drive at 1am, when it all comes together. I pointed out 20 years ago that shops were going away for actual technicians to nothing but “Installers”, when I went with a friend to pick up his 930 from a shop in Georgia, after 8 months and they did more damage, when the owner was bragging about it HP he was getting out of modern cars ( which was basically just plugging in a laptop and “Reflashing”, to real skill when someone else created software and anyone who can read and follow simple instructions could do.



Not often that I agree with you, but you are dead on about this. When the car does all the work, it takes the fun out. When I had my 964 C4, that benefited from the recall (and Brumos said it you want to upgrade the engine, labor is covered by the recall, and you will be credited for the stock parts) and it was much faster than when I test drove the 964 C4 when it was introduced. A friend called me on a Tuesday and asked me what I was doing tomorrow, I said working, then she said we have Roebling Road tomorrow, no cost and with you, it will only be 5 of us. I was, dang, my track car is not ready, as we were doing a few upgrades. She said bring your street car, only 5 cars on track at the most and hard to beat the price. So I took Patty, so she could work on her tan while I was playing on the track. Being on street tires (17” Cup IIs) and being use of Hoosiers , at first I was taking it easy. But you know how it gets, friends play, a few had their race cars, and I just wanted to see to what extent I could keep up, not really expecting much. Well, we are ripping down the front straight, and the 964 was doing way better than I expected, next thing I know, I’m going faster than my old track car could, and then I see that I’m not only going much faster, but am much deeper going into turn one. I figured I would end up going off, but the AWD, flat out pulled my ass through the turn, so I kept pushing harder. Every time, the C4, pulled me through. After a few laps, it got boring to me, you see, if the car is doing the work, essentially correcting your mistakes, well, if there’s no punishment for your mistakes, then there’s no reward for you and if the car is doing the work. That’s why early 930s and 911s are so much fun, because the risk/reward factor. To drive a early 930 or 911 fast around the track, you truly have to learn and work hard to do so. To me, that’s much more rewarding.
In the local PCA, there was a clown, who leased a RS America when they came out, he had Brumos trick it out, suspension and more. Problem was, he couldn’t drive it for crap, with what should have been a car that would be one of the fastest, he was at the bottom. When the 996 C4Ss came out, he leased one of those, PMS, and all the other tech, all the sudden, he was in the top of the pack, he never improved as a driver (that was clear at DEs) so it was the car driving him. I have always believed, without Risk, there can be no real Reward, which is why I got bored with the 964 (and damn, I regret that I let that go, but used the money in a business. You sir, have have the purest form of Porsche, a 356 Speedster and with that, you gain the most reward for driving it well, even though most modern cars are much, much faster. But a pure driving car is much more rewarding. Funny, a good friend of mine, who raced IMSA in the glorious era, and we know there were basically 2 types of racers then, those who bought a seat to race, and those who got those guys on the pole.My friend is the latter, pushing 80,still a great driver. Owned and raced some of the fastest Porsche’s on the track back then (and owned every year Speedster as well as a few very special Porsches, wanted to drive my Cayenne Turbo, says that is it faster than the full race Porsches he raced (from factory RSRs up) . He still owns and drives some very fast cars, so it isn’t like he his comparing it to say his tube chassis IMSA 911 or his old 906 or factory 924 GTR.
When a car has no soul, it becomes an appliance like a microwave oven.

this is just dumb ass ageism.

the young car people i know, could probably race circles around you, and out wrench you in heartbeat, all while laying on a frozen lake changing out a clutch in -10 degrees. get ****ing real lol.

stop watching TV, get off the internet, and show up to a race, and see whos there. get out of cheap seats, come do something instead of talkin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86706Fh4uNY

[HobieMarty]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

the reality was muscle was never really a thing.

i mean go back and read/watch some old car reviews. most muscle cars were slow AF. 14-16 second quarter miles, etc etc. SAE gross power, simply made up power figures ... like lots of shens going on there. but the performance was never really there. no one could jump an apple with their front tires, no one couldnt touch the dash ... etc etc. none of this was real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrEL2OQkvOY



old muscle cars have been tainted by modern performance engineering, and rose tinted glasses. those cars can be plenty fast, with much more modern CNC heads/headers/carbs, modern tires, suspension, etc etc. but stock, these cars were never fast. all those stories are largely just ... not true. now, maybe you could do some of the stories, but back then ... nope. not even close.

for context, a gr86 does 0-60 in 6.5, and the quarter in 14.0 at 101. so like if you can touch the dashboard in that car (and you can), you could touch the dashboard in these old cars. no one was jumping the front tires etc.

Ever been in a 1970 plum crazy purple pistol grip shifted Hemi 'Cuda?


Let's see what alley this wrong turn takes us down.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Alan A]

It’s not muscle. It’s anything pre 1990.

[Dixie]

Muscle, muscle, muscle... It's overated.

I like the honesty of old Detroit iron. They're not made to be aerodynamic, or get great gas mileage. They're built to smoothly slip down interstates exuding style, and pizzazz.

I love the thin, transparent, acrylic steering wheels, the glistening chrome interior trim, and those pleated, button tufted bench seats that allow me to be up against my man. I even find the no-feel, over boosted, steering and brakes charming. I'm especially intrigued by how analog the cars were. Why, anyone can work on them, and most problems can be diagnosed by watching how the parts are supposed to move.

I love how those old cars let me imagine a time when all men were as dapper as Don Draper, and all women were as beautiful as Sophia Loren. Where every family lived the American dream and never worried about war, money, taxes, health insurance, or their in-laws. Sure, it's a time that never existed, but I like to imagine it was at least a little real.



(An aside. If the country club in that ad is so swanky, why are there bars on the windows? Haha)

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

this is just dumb ass ageism.

the young car people i know, could probably race circles around you, and out wrench you in heartbeat, all while laying on a frozen lake changing out a clutch in -10 degrees. get ****ing real lol.

stop watching TV, get off the internet, and show up to a race, and see whos there. get out of cheap seats, come do something instead of talkin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86706Fh4uNY

Funny, then why do they always come up to me at driving event's and and cars and coffees and ask me for advice, my opinions and to stop by and help with their project??










Yea, I have never been on track.

[ted]

I think driving on ice without chains or cornering a stock 60s muscle car on bias plys are similar in some ways.
Lots of fun finding and exceeding limits.

Forget a C6Z maybe I'm old enough for a Blackwing CTSV.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

whats funny?

hell, the honda mini van beats a E type and 356 around cones too, off the showroom floor on stock tires:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/




the difference is no one in imported sports cars is dumb enough to make the absolutly stupid claims people make about old muscle cars. you know, like afterburn does.

what, was this news to you randy?

It also trashed a Miata. You can stop with young people are better than old now- if you think anyone is still on bias-ply tires, oil filled shocks and bell bottoms trying to compete with you around a roadcourse or dragstrip., well- I don't know what to tell you.

At least you've proven you're capable of reading some magazine articles. Still can't spell tho.

rjp

[herr_oberst]

The better question is really "Is performance dead" and the answer is a resounding no.

Corvette ZR1X is rumored to have 1300 hp at the flywheel, which is more than Chevy is advertising. (Doing that thing that Porsche has traditionally done; underreporting hp.)

The ZR1 supposedly has 1200 FWHP, also more than advertised.

That's one example of today's performance.

Personally, I think it's criminal; this car and many like it, as sold, is not equipped to save the occupants in the event of high speed catastrophe any more than the 1960 Chrysler 300 was going to do much to save it's occupants in the event of loss of control at speed.
But that's just me. I get a little edgy thinking about that kind of stuff.

[RANDY P]

^^
People have no idea how to effectively drive. If they did, 400 HP would be plenty- Those cars are for the more money than driving skill crowd.

Fool's errand on the street- if used the driver would likely blow their Depends right out of their jorts.

rjp

[ted]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

You can stop with young people are better than old now- if you think anyone is still on bias-ply tires,

Still use and prefer bias ply slick slip angles at the track.
Even though a radial slick is a second a lap quicker.