Weird Clutch problem

[DonDavis]

It's my 1996 Subaru Legacy Outback referenced here...

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/963385-my-craigslist-subaru-score.html

When I bought the car, I pulled the engine and did the clutch, flywheel, head gaskets and bunch of other wear items. After that, the car drove super great. Only gripe is the 2.2 with 300,000 miles is down on power, but it's fine for my use.

Now at 335,000 and while exiting an off ramp I caught the green light and smoothly continued making the left turn. I downshifted and the clutch began slipping. It drove home ok, but it got worse real quick.

I could drive it, but 1st and 2nd gear was really slippy. Once moving, 3-4-5 were mostly ok.

I thought only 35k miles for the clutch was strange. Got it from FLAPS, LuK brand.

So, I pulled the engine, replaced the clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. Flywheel looked good, no scorching. Put it back together, zero change. Tried adjusting the clutch cable, but it's maxed out.

New cable is $85, local indy shop, SubiWorx, wanted $135 to install and adjust that and the hill holder as well.

I had them do it.

Minimal change. He had me test drive and no joy. It's a tiny bit better and we talked. He says flywheel is the problem.

To recap, new clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing and clutch cable...still slips very badly.

Thoughts?

[john70t]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

Flywheel looked good, no scorching.

Minimal change. He had me test drive and no joy. It's a tiny bit better and we talked. He says flywheel is the problem.

To recap, new clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing and clutch cable...still slips very badly.

Under load in lower gears...it still slips..with all new hardware.

Throw-out-bearing fork arm is bent.

Or pivot bearing seized.
Not moving to allow cover plate fingers to release.
There should be a gap between Arm and TO when pedal is released. to allow free spinning
My first guesses.

Something is preventing full sandwich of the friction plate burger between the buns.


Or:
Flywheel might be seriously worn down enough, with a deep groove tract, to not allow full contact of Friction Plate. That should be obvious.
Flywheels do need resurfacing.
Only problem is that most places don't do it anymore. Same with brake rotors with a lot of meat still.

Or:
Friction Plate springs anti-vibration are weak toast.They max out.
It was a failed rebuild part.
But the whole assembly should still still engage even if engagement is harsh. So this is probably not it.

[DonDavis]

The shop mentioned the fork possibility, but it's original. Doesn't appear to have any damage.

Are you thinking it's just "bent" over time and use? Sort of minor and not easily detected by the eye?

Btw, I've had failed rebuilt pressure plates. I don't think this is it.

2 cables, 2 clutches, 2 pressure plates and throw-out bearings...no change.

Only things left are the flywheel and clutch fork.

[john70t]

re-thinking: Actually if the fork arm were bent back.....the clutch burger would have full engagement.

Something else wrong there.

[DonDavis]

Here’s the 35,000 mile pressure plate I removed.

I cannot feel an edge with my fingernail on that wear area.

[john70t]

Bad TO bearing? It happens.

That kind of wear on new cover plate fingers shouldn't happen, to my limited knowledge.

[DonDavis]

So you're thinking the fork not releasing is causing that wear?

I would guess that when the throw-out bearing makes contact with the fingers it spins/no slipping.

That wear is not expected and it should only show some contact marks, correct?

[908/930]

You mentioned that you did the flywheel, was that a new flywheel or someone machined it?

[DonDavis]

It was a new flywheel when I installed it 35,000 miles ago.

[908/930]

I hate to ask this but did the friction plate have a longer hub on one side, plate installed facing the correct way?

[DonDavis]

Good question, haha.

But it was "Don" proof. It would only go in the proper direction.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

So you're thinking the fork not releasing is causing that wear?

I would guess that when the throw-out bearing makes contact with the fingers it spins/no slipping.

That wear is not expected and it should only show some contact marks, correct?

Yes. But don't take my word for it.
(TO bearing thought was probably wrong)
Mechanic should have checked this all with a test drive. And should have found this.

1) Normal driving in any gear (Foot OFF the clutch):
-The pedal is pushed back to top due to pedal return spring/bearing
-The clutch cable is pulled back.
-The arm in the transmission is retracted
-That arm pulls back the TO bearing
-Which lifts off the clutch cover fingers.
-There should now be small gap separation. 1/16" or something. I forget. The sides are split.
-Separated. Not causing wear on the fingers.

The clutch cover fingers lock the friction plate (burger) between the buns (clutch cover plate and flywheel)
Everything is locked in place.
Engine power direct to Transmission gearing.


Your case is that something is still pushing on the clutch cover fingers.

Something between the pedal and arm/TO bearing is not releasing.

[DonDavis]

This car has the Hill Holder feature which connects to the fork.

I'm going to disconnect it today, I'll report back in a bit.

[john70t]

I had a 1995 Legacy automatic.
Best car for Michigan winters. Drove it like snot and went through everything. Every single thing rusted damaged and/or failing. Still ran. Like crap.
Frame lift points finally gave out.

908/930 might have it.

[DonDavis]

Disconnected the Hill holder, no change.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by john70t

snip…
-There should now be small gap separation. 1/16" or something. I forget. The sides are split.
-Separated. Not causing wear on the fingers.

With the car sitting in my garage, I can feel the approx 1/16” you mention. With my buddy pressing the clutch to the floor, there’s zero wiggle. I think the fork is probably ok.

Thinking it’s the flywheel.

[908/930]

A quick look online I noticed this, does your transmission have the bearing retainer repair sleeve? If so did you install the correct bearing for it?

[john70t]

Was everything de-greased before assembly? (ie friction surfaces)
A bit of grease lube might cause noticeable chatter.
But that should burn itself off after a short while.

What about the main bearing seal squirting oil on the clutch assembly?

Something is majorly affecting friction surfaces at this junction point. After time. With successful use.

Either parts moved, failed, or something new added.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by 908/930

A quick look online I noticed this, does your transmission have the bearing retainer repair sleeve? If so did you install the correct bearing for it?

I don't think that applies to my car. It didn't have it when I removed the transmission the first time. The car was completely stock when I bought it.

Originally Posted by john70t

Was everything de-greased before assembly?
What about the main bearing seal squirting oil on the clutch assembly?

Yes, everything was cleaned before reassembly.

And I halfway thought the main bearing was leaking causing the issue in the first place, but it was bone dry in there.

[911 Rod]

Can you push the car without it running and in gear?