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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger (Post 7676274)

Methanol is almost free to make from flare gas. Ethanol is the one that takes more energy to make than it contains. Gasoline is also poisonous if injested It is what denatures E85 (as well as adding lubricity). Methanol is a little worse.

Methanol free from methane? Not quite. It is much cheaper than conventional distillation of wood etc, but still not free. Plus it takes a long time for stuff to decompose to make methane, so it's small scale only.
Fr large scale it';s still distillation of cellulose type stuff and it's a negative energy producer.

If by flare gas you meant the stuff that goes to flare in a refinery, around here it's captured and used a fuel gas so we don't have to buy natural gas to fire heaters and boilers.
Plus it's illegal to flare here...

E85 is 15% ethanol, not methanol. Methanol is way way more poisonous that gasoline or ethanol.

Quote:

methanol:
Potential Health Effects
Eye: Produces irritation, characterized by a burning sensation, redness, tearing, inflammation, and possible corneal injury. May cause painful sensitization to light.
Skin: Causes moderate skin irritation. May be absorbed through the skin in harmful amounts. Prolonged and/or repeated contact may cause defatting of the skin and dermatitis.
Ingestion: May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. May cause gastrointestinal irritation with nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. May cause systemic toxicity with acidosis. May cause central nervous system depression, characterized by excitement, followed by headache, dizziness, drowsiness, and nausea. Advanced stages may cause collapse, unconsciousness, coma and possible death due to respiratory failure. May cause cardiopulmonary system effects.
Inhalation: Harmful if inhaled. May cause adverse central nervous system effects including headache, convulsions, and possible death. May cause visual impairment and possible permanent blindness. Causes irritation of the mucous membrane.
Chronic: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis. Chronic inhalation and ingestion may cause effects similar to those of acute inhalation and ingestion. Chronic exposure may cause reproductive disorders and teratogenic effects. Laboratory experiments have resulted in mutagenic effects. Prolonged exposure may cause liver, kidney, and heart damage.

Chemical Name ACGIH
Methyl alcohol 200 ppm TWA

Gasoline 300 ppm TWA

Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) 1000 ppm TWA

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When natural gas is so cheap it makes sense to start with it but you don't need to start with methane. You can gassify wood chips or switch grass. You cook the biomass with limited oxygen to produce CO and H2 then go from there. You can use CO2 from the air and the excess hydrogen is used to power the process and/or to increase methanol yield.

How is Methanol Made? - Methanol Institute
(yes, they are lobbyists but the chemistry is correct)

Methanol makes much more sense as a fuel than ethanol which has barely break-even net energy content or even negative. Note that methanol production is not distillation. That is ethanol, made using yeast (or the holy grail catalysts to break down cellulose) and corn just like drinking alcohol (which it is). My point about E85 is that they want to make fuel poisonous so that people don't get drunk at the pump instead of at a bar. So they add gasoline and viola. Methanol just does a better job of it. Just be careful around fuel (duh).

The cure for methanol poisoning is to drink ethanol. A professor I took a class from who ran hydrogen and methanol cars once got methanol poisoning while siphoning and called posion control. They told him they could pump his stomach or he could drink a fifth of whiskey. He chose the latter and was fit enough the next day to drive.

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Guys, maybe you should consider starting another thread for this discussion?

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