Prisoner "abuse"????

[RickM]

While the "I didn't know" stance could be true to a certain level or degree this article seems to raise the bar:

Quote: "Iraqis held by U.S. forces have been subjected to systematic degrading treatment, sometimes close to torture, that may have been officially condoned, the International Committee of the Red Cross said Friday."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20040507/wl_nm/iraq_abuse_redcross_dc

[techweenie]

"The real issue is because of this "I didn't know," or "I wasn't aware" talk, one has to wonder what else is going wrong right at this moment with the war in general."

There are rumored to be 11,000 Iraqis in detention without charges and without any outside contact. Men women and children ranging from 11 to 80.

If we are "a nation of laws" we need to apply these laws to the countries we occupy.

----excerpt-------
10.000 Civilians Killed in Iraq in a Year
____By Le Nouvel Observateur FR

____Thursday 18 March 2004

_____"One year after the beginning of the war in Iraq, the promise of an improvement in human rights for Iraqis is far from being realized," asserts the human rights defense organization in its report.

_____According to Amnesty, it is estimated that "over 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in a year as a result of the military intervention in Iraq and the occupation which has followed. "One year after the war began, Iraqi civilians are still being killed every day," emphasizes the report, according to which, "a great number of them seem to have died either because of excessive use of force by American troops or were killed in controversial circumstances."

____Death in Detention

_____Amnesty recalls that it was "asked on several occasions to produce an independent and impartial inquiry into the civilians killed by coalition forces.

_____At the same time, the report emphasizes, "Iraqi civilians confront the danger represented by attacks apparently conducted by armed groups, which have "killed hundreds of civilians," according to the communique.

_____The report adds that "thousands of people have been detained (by coalition forces), often under difficult conditions, many have been tortured, and some have died in detention."

_____Amnesty indicates that the Provisional Authority of the United States-led coalition "acknowledges detaining 8,500 people, but an Iraqi human rights organization estimates the number of prisoners at 15,000."

[Icemaster]

"Meanwhile, one of al-Sadr's senior aides told worshippers in Basra that anyone capturing a female British soldier can keep her as a slave. Waving an assault rifle, Sheik Abdul-Sattar al-Bahadli also said anyone capturing a British soldier will receive about $350 and anyone killing one will receive $150. "

'Nuff said.

The Arab world will ALWAYS hate the non-arab world - here's where we enter into the religious debate.

IT's more a topic of acting in a civilized fashion. We're supposed to be taking the high road, and should of alleged arbiters of right and wrong. Far be it from me to believe that this actually happens in reality - however- if we want to have any credibility in ANY part of the world, Arab or not, we cannot condone this type of behavior. At least not amongst unwilling adults.

[on-ramp]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040507%2F1454869345.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20040507WAS90D_WAS90D



let's see em..

[island911]

Originally posted by on-ramp

let's see em..

yeah, so you're for throwing fuel on the fire?

[350HP930]

Originally posted by island911
yeah, so you're for throwing fuel on the fire?

Do you prefer sweeping things under the rug?

[island911]

dis·cre·tion (d¹-skrµsh“…n) n. 1. The quality of being discreet; circumspection. See Synonyms at prudence. 2. Ability or power to decide responsibly. 3. Freedom to act or judge on one's own: All the decisions were left to our discretion. --dis·cre“tion·al adj. --dis·cre“tion·al·ly adv.


What rug? Theres no rug.

[350HP930]

Discretion would have involved not invading iraq under false pretences.

[island911]

ya ya. . .but here we are now.

HP, do you really think that "more pictures" will change how the military is going to handle this? The genie is out of the bottle (so to speak) . .. .more pict's play in to the hands of those looking to war. I thought you guys where for less war.


. . .it's an 'anything to discredit Bush" thing, isn't it?

[Icemaster]

When are we going to see the pictures of what Saddam used to sanction to Iraqi's in the same prison?

I've got a feeling that guys on leashes making naked human pyramids might pale in comparison.....

[350HP930]

The facts have proven than the current administration was willing to do nothing about this before the pictures leaked out.

Now we still have people like rumsfeld arguing that this is just 'mistreatment' and does not rise to the level of torture.

Apparantly the cat must be let out of the bag for people in the bush admistration to admit to an attrocity, let alone the severity of it.

[on-ramp]

350HP930 you're absolutely right

but some of you idiots are still missing the point....

first we were told that these were the actions of a couple "bad" apples....but as the story unfolds, we find that these MPs were told to treat prisoners in this way by officials higher up in the food chain..

Only until the pictures were published, has this scandal been shoved to the front....

and now they're scattering like cockroaches, going on TV apologizing, backtracking, and mixing it up.

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by Icemaster
When are we going to see the pictures of what Saddam used to sanction to Iraqi's in the same prison?

I've got a feeling that guys on leashes making naked human pyramids might pale in comparison.....

"I've said today that there are a lot more photographs and videos that exist. If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact," Rumsfeld said.

"I mean I looked at them last night and they're hard to believe," he said. "And if they're sent to some news organization and taken out of the criminal prosecution


channels that they're in, that's where we'll be. And it's not a pretty picture."


and i really believed all along that we were liberating the Iraqi people from this kind of abuse....silly me

[island911]

Originally posted by on-ramp
350HP930 you're absolutely right

but some of you idiots are still missing the point....
. . .

yeah? . ..which idiots, do you think, are still missing the point?

[350HP930]

Are you volunteering for the position?

[techweenie]

It's a much bigger story than just the jokey poses. It goes farther than Iraq.

It's now involving the British -- charged with rape of female Iraqis. It's now involving videotapes purporting to show worse things done by our troops -- mostly untrained to be prison guards.

But it goes up the chain of command as well:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_02.php#002926

When the President indicates that invading Iraq is 'God's will', how do we criticize the folks in the chain of command who believe the same thing?

[speeder]

What bothered me the most as I listened to Rumsfeld's phony, self-serving apology today is the fact that if not for some dumb-***** grunts taking pictures and sending them home, (and really digital camera technology which did not exist for consumers as recently as the 1st Gulf war), this mistreatment would still be occuring as I type this.

It was absolutely tolerated on a widespread basis, and either he knew about it and is a war criminal, or he was not in control of something as important as the treatment of POWs. Ignorant rednecks are trying to justify it by mentioning the way that Daniel Perle was murdered, etc., this garbage totally increases the chances of one of our own being tortured or killed in enemy custody! How do you think that some of our boys treated a Nazi or a Viet Cong when they got ahold of them, in response to what the other side had done? It really makes my blood rise.

[fintstone]

I watched Rumfeld's testimony and saw/heard nothing to indicate it was tolerated at all. Every time a crime is committed in California..do you think the Governor should have known about it and prevented it? The military is huge and spead all over the world. The investigation was started within days of when the problem was brought to the attention of the army. The investigations were ongoing and the perpetrators had been removed from duty waiting court martial. All the photos did was provide fodder for our enemies.

As far as treatment of the VC, the only folks I know of that admitted to atrocities were Calley, Bob Kerry, and John Kerry and some of John Kerry's friends in his "veteran's" organization that were never even in Vietnam..

[tabs]

Ruff Ruff I'm in how do you sign up...I've got my own dog collar and leash...I fetch and sit on command.....roll over and even bark when I'm told to....

[techweenie]

F: "...As far as treatment of the VC, the only folks I know of that admitted to atrocities..."

The issue wasn't atrocities committed against the Viet Cong. It was atrocities committed against innocent civilians. Does someone need to 'confess' for you to accuse them?

At the risk of being over-educated, you might want to read this:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1071214,00.html