Russian Terror

[fintstone]

No, we do not watch CBC. I didn't know any one did. Don't watch Fox much either. If there were indeed huge protests, I am sure you will provide us a few internet news links as it would certainly be a big story (and suprise). Personally, with the millions of Muslims in the world, I would not consider a few thousand showing up in a a couple of moderate countries to be very demonstrative of their support. Many more showed up in support of the murderer Saddam and millions can be counted in for any anti-american protest.

As far as Russia is concerned....the national motto after the Germans slaughtered so many in WW2 was "never again." Those who were outraged at our soldier putting some women's panties over the heads of prisoners are about to see some real payback. If I were a young male chechen...I would start running now..

[Victor]

Originally posted by Sonic dB
True. But Ill be happy to stick with my collection of Fenders.

SG's are pretty cool too.

[turbocarrera]

Yep.. panties killed 32 in that prison.. anyhoo..

You said there were no Muslims denouncing the actions of those terrorists, but there was - maybe not in the numbers you require..

I just wish people would stop lumping terrorist extremists with Muslims in general. That's the tone I hear from alot of people - that Muslims are evil and if they are wiped out, it's ok.. they were Muslims.

[Victor]

Are Muslims becoming to Americans what jews where to Germans?

[350HP930]

Originally posted by Victor
Are Muslims becoming to Americans what jews where to Germans?

Bingo, . . . afghanistan represents poland and iraq represents france, resistance and all.

Was 9/11 bush's reichstag fire?

What will be the next bush move from the nazi playbook?

[CarreraS2]

Originally posted by Victor
Are Muslims becoming to Americans what jews where to Germans?

If this info from djmcmath, posted above, is true, then Muslims can't be equated to Jews and your analogy completely falls apart:

"But I digress. The Koran makes no bones about it -- peaceful coexistence is not an option. There is the House of Islam, and there is Everybody Else. Everybody Else must either be killed, converted, or subjected to crippling occupation -- again, the Koran leaves no choices here."

[Serge914]

Originally posted by fintstone
If there were indeed huge protests, I am sure you will provide us a few internet news links as it would certainly be a big story (and suprise).

I was quite surprised also when I saw it on the news. Those protest by the muslims in France were for the liberation of those 2 French journalists helds ostage in Irak. They say they gone kill them if the French government doesn't change his law agains the Islamic veil in school.

[jyl]

Originally posted by fintstone
This is what Putin gets for fighting a "more sensitive" war on terror. right from the Kerry playbook. I am glad our leader has not wavered. Putin and the Russians will not make such a mistake again. Don't be suprised to see a little wholesale slaughter.

Don't know where you get your facts (as opposed to your slogans). Putin is not fighting a "sensitive" war on terror. There is nothing "sensitive" about Putin (ex-head of the KGB) and the Russian government at all. They are about as hardline as you would like the US to be. The Russian military is fighting a full-blown war against the Chechens - does appx 160,000 civilians killed by Russian armor, airstrikes, artillery, etc sound "sensitive"?

Okay, maybe there hasn't actually been as much "wholesale slaughter" as you advocate. There are appx 1 million native Chechens living in Chechnya, and if the Russian military kills all 1 million of them, then there probably won't be much more Chechen terrorism in Russia. I can see some drawbacks to that particular "Chechen solution".

Look, it is nice to be all macho and pretend that GI boots and B-52s will solve every problem, especially when those won't be your own boots. The fact - as opposed to the slogan - is that military force is not going to be the complete answer to terrorism. Military force will be an important part of the answer. But, more importantly, we'll have to solve the festering underlying conflicts that are breeding and motivating the terrorists in the first place.

So long as Israel and the Palestinians are at each others' throats, with the US as Israel's sole economic and military backer, many young poor Arabs will regard the US as an enemy and be ripe for terrorist recruiting. Unfortunately, this will now also be the case so long as US troops occupy Iraq. If we don't resolve those underlying conflicts, and instead devote all our efforts to the military part of the solution, we will have only two choices: (1) suffer through a never-ending and escalating "war on terror", or (2) commit genocide by exterminating entire populations. A few posters on this board might recommend such "wholesale slaughter" but it would be the end of the US as we know it.

[Victor]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
If this info from djmcmath, posted above, is true, then Muslims can't be equated to Jews and your analogy completely falls apart:

"But I digress. The Koran makes no bones about it -- peaceful coexistence is not an option. There is the House of Islam, and there is Everybody Else. Everybody Else must either be killed, converted, or subjected to crippling occupation -- again, the Koran leaves no choices here."

Relax dude, it's not my analogy yet.

It's still just a question.

[CarreraS2]

Then I guess you have your answer.

[turbocarrera]

That's one interpretation of the Koran.. I know a girl that teaches in a private Muslim school and they understand Jihad to mean the struggle to provide for your family, help others, educate yourself, etc.. they deplore any act of violence. Great kids.. I've met a few and they are quite smitten with the 930.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by jyl
Don't know where you get your facts (as opposed to your slogans). Putin is not fighting a "sensitive" war on terror. .

Sorry, just taking the man at his word! I'm sure you know his stance better than he does.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Victor
Are Muslims becoming to Americans what jews where to Germans?

Please explain. I don't remember any Jewish terrorists shooting hundreds of German children in the back or attacking buildings full of civilians with civilian aircraft full of innocents. Please refresh my memory...I can't remember a thing about that in my history books.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by turbocarrera
Yep.. panties killed 32 in that prison.. anyhoo..

You said there were no Muslims denouncing the actions of those terrorists, but there was - maybe not in the numbers you require..

I don't know, I have wached the news (several channels) intently for such an outpouring of sympathy for those slaughtered by the terrorists and have found none. I also did a search for news articles and came up short....do you have a link to any?

[jyl]

Originally posted by fintstone
Sorry, just taking the man at his word! I'm sure you know his stance better than he does.

Taking Vladmir Putin at his word? No better than taking George Bush at his word . . . check this out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64187-2004Sep5.html

"MOSCOW, Sept. 5 -- The Russian government admitted Sunday that it lied to its people about the scale of the hostage crisis that ended with more than 300 children, parents and teachers dead in southern Russia, making an extraordinary admission through state television after days of intense criticism from citizens."

[CamB]

go to cnn.com. There it is (its a video, and I can't watch it because you need a subscription).

Or spend 5 mins on Google.

http://www.news.com.au/common/printpage/0,6093,10678458,00.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-arabs5sep05,1,4953503.story?coll=la-home-world
http://www.shianews.com/low/talking_corner/topic_id/0000018.php

The LA Times one needs a (free) subscription. If you can't be bothered with registering (I usually can't!), it says:

Russian School Takeover Stirs Self-Criticism Among Arabs
By Megan K. Stack
Times Staff Writer

September 5, 2004

CAIRO — Expressions of shame and self-reproach swept the Arab world Saturday as Muslims mourned the deaths of Russian schoolchildren — and voiced unusually critical condemnations of the social ills widely blamed here for breeding terrorism.

The Arab world has watched with mounting disgust in recent weeks as a wave of civilian hostages — some of them Arabs and Muslims — were slaughtered by masked insurgents in Iraq. Last week, newspapers and satellite channels were dominated by pictures of bloodied, naked children in southern Russia fleeing armed guerrillas suspected to be Islamic rebels. Many Arabs found themselves in an ever-more-common dilemma: struggling to reconcile their sympathy for a political cause with growing revulsion at the wrath leveled by self-described "holy warriors" against the innocent.

"What is the guilt of those children? Why should they be responsible for your conflict with the government?" Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, Egypt's highest-ranking cleric, railed during Friday prayers in the Egyptian town of Benha. "You are taking Islam as a cover and it is a deceptive cover; those who carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims."

Tantawi's refrain was a familiar one among Muslims who have felt unfairly tarred by the swell of high-profile bloodbaths carried out by fellow believers: This wasn't Islam.

But on Saturday, some prominent Arabs came forward with a more sobering interpretation: Corrupt, repressed Arab and Islamic societies have become breeding grounds for terrorism. It's a judgment often heard among Western critics but rarely voiced in heavily censored Arab rhetoric.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," wrote Abdul Rahman Rashed, general manager of the popular Al Arabiya television channel. In a blunt column in the pan-Arab newspaper Asharq al Awsat, Rashed listed attacks carried out by Muslims in Iraq, Russia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

"Our terrorist sons are an end product of our corrupted culture," he wrote. "The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us."

The guerrillas who seized the school in the town of Beslan on Wednesday and held more than 1,000 captives were believed to have been linked to Islamic separatists in the Russian republic of Chechnya.

In the aftermath of Friday's shootout between troops and the hostage-takers, which left more than 300 people dead, Russian officials told reporters that 10 of the more than two dozen fighters were Arabs, though the statement could not be immediately verified.

Chechnya has long figured prominently among the battles listed by radical Islamists as jihads, or holy struggles. Like Palestinians, Iraqis and Kashmiris, the predominantly Muslim Chechens are generally viewed sympathetically by the Arab world, and their plight is often pointed to as proof that Islam has come under fire around the world.

Iran and virtually all Arab governments put aside any Chechen sympathies and condemned the hostage-taking and ensuing carnage in Beslan. Such broad outrage has been rare after assaults in Iraq or Saudi Arabia and all but unthinkable after attacks on Israeli civilians.

King Abdullah II of Jordan, who was visiting Putin in Russia last week, called the school takeover "criminal and cowardly."

The Saudi daily Arab News blasted Putin as "a servant of state dictatorship and control," a man who could not afford to lose his "tough-man image." But the editorial saved its harshest condemnation for the guerrillas, "who had put themselves in a position where no one would shed tears when the punishment came. They reached a new low when they chose toddlers as bargaining chips."

"The world sympathized with them. But no one believed that those deaths [of Chechens] in a war situation gave them the right to do what they did in Beslan," the editorial said. "If the Chechens had set out deliberately to shame and defeat a noble cause — and there is no cause nobler than that of freedom — they could not have done any better."

An editorial in Lebanon's Daily Star called for "better governance systems and socioeconomic opportunities in those countries and regions, including our Middle East, that seem to generate so many terrorists."

"Terror emanates largely from despair, hopelessness and humiliation," the editorial said. "And these are sentiments whose causes can be identified, tracked, grasped and addressed."

[jyl]

Originally posted by fintstone
I don't know, I have wached the news (several channels) intently for such an outpouring of sympathy for those slaughtered by the terrorists and have found none. I also did a search for news articles and came up short....do you have a link to any?

I haven't done any particular search, but did run across this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/05/russia.arabs.ap/index.html

"CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- Images of dead, wounded and traumatized Russian children being carried from the scene of a rebel school siege horrified Arabs, prompting forthright self-criticism and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam and its followers."

[fintstone]

While I appreciate the posts showing that some Muslim leaders and english speaking middle east newspapers did indeed condemn the acts...I saw nothing indicating any large scale...or even small demonstrations.

I suspect that some of the Muslim leaders are worried a bit about their respective rears now that they have the two most powerful countries on earth and their "cowboy" leaders very angry. Maybe they will wake up and stop supporting terrorists...before they are destroyed.

[350HP930]

Originally posted by fintstone
Please explain. I don't remember any Jewish terrorists shooting hundreds of German children in the back or attacking buildings full of civilians with civilian aircraft full of innocents. Please refresh my memory...I can't remember a thing about that in my history books.

Hitler and the german propaganda machine accused the 'international jewish conspiracy' of being behind everything from WWI to the crippling reparations they were forced to pay for that fiasco.

So essensially the german state blamed the jews for everything from domestic street crime to the death of thousands of german soldiers and a continuing plot to destroy germany and all of western civilization.

The more that you talk about your ignorance of history the more I am lead to believe that the history books you refer to are the history books in high school that usually contain more pictures than paragraphs and represent a very cartoonish version of history.

Time to bust out the big wordy history books if you think that jews had to hijack aircraft to be propped up as the bogey man for the third reich.

[fintstone]

Guess not everyone is condemning the incident:

Cleric supports targeting children
By Rajeev Syal
(Filed: 05/09/2004)
An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.

"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay."

Mr Mohammed, 44, who lives in Edmonton, north London, but is originally from Syria, also claimed that the Chechen rebels were not responsible for the deaths of more than 350 people - at least half of them children - who are so far known to have died in Beslan.

"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.

He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Andrew Dismore, the Labour MP for Hendon, was infuriated by Mr Mohammed's comments. "That sounds to me like incitement and I will report him to Scotland Yard," he said. "It is an insult to most moderate Muslims, who are sick of people like this claiming to represent them."