Bible quotes

[Por_sha911]

Sounds good but the evolution system is built on a model of an isolated system. When you look at evolution, we're talking small scale.

[gavinlit]

Ok - Second law is coverd above.
Re Fact - You could argue there's no such thing as fact - just agreed understandings/observations/definitions that seem to work well for us in our observable lives. 'Facts' have a way of changing. To loosely plagiarise - "It was once a fact that the world was flat. It was once fact that heavier objects fell faster. It was once fact that certain humans were superior to others by divine decree " etc etc.

In maths we have we may have axioms, which is probably as close to fact as you're going to get (althought proven theories come close - if you ignore Godel) but I don't know that science has something similar. I'm happy to be corrected on this one.

[Por_sha911]

Oh by the way, you quoted from a website that is not accepted by the scientific community:

The Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. is an international non-profit organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge. Wikimedia relies on public donations to meet its goal of providing free knowledge to every person in the world.

A Wiki or wiki (pronounced [wɪkią°], [wią°kią°] or [vią°kią°]; see Pronunciation below) is a web application that allows users to add content, as on an Internet forum, but also allows anyone to edit the content.

Basically, you can have anyone who say "I think..." and this website accepts it as factual.

[gavinlit]

Evolution theory is a model which has been used pretty well to describe a system that is not isolated. You could consider the model to be isolated if you wish but not the environment to which it applies.

[350HP930]

Originally posted by Por_sha911
Sounds good but the evolution system is built on a model of an isolated system. When you look at evolution, we're talking small scale.

You can not even get your concept of an isolated system correct.

The earth is not an isolated system and none of the systems that reside on it are either.

[gavinlit]

You know I'm actually enjoying this Sad isn't it - should get back to work.

[Por_sha911]

There have been accepted "facts" that were later proven wrong but there have to be immovable standards of agreement for society and science to properly operate. We call them rules, laws, facts. Even the evolutionists work on this principle. They simply choose to ignore certain fact that shoot holes in their theory.

[gavinlit]

Hey mad rocket scientist - what would you say is closest to a concept of 'fact' in the science community. Like a mathematical axiom. Is there one?

[Por_sha911]

Sorry but I reject your "fact" from the Wiki-watchee website. It isn't accepted in the scientific community. Just a Web-Science version of the National Inquirer magazine. I stand on my original statement on the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Find me a source that is credible to document your "I think..." website.

[gavinlit]

There have to be standards for society to work but they're certainly not immovable. None of them. It would be a pretty stagnant world if they were. Scientists don't ignore facts that contradict a theory, rather they argue about the 'facts' or the theory and conduct experiments (as well as slang off at each other), until most are reasonably happy with each other.

[350HP930]

Everything in science is a logical or mathematical model that attempts to explain and predict reality.

There are many mind/body, quantum and mathematical (like godel's) uncertainties that state that all these observations and mental constructs are built on some metaphysical quicksand but the fact that these models do mimic reality show that they have validity.

That said, I will take philosophy and science over some nutbag religious scripture as rules to live by any day.

[gavinlit]

By the way Joe, every text ever written is an 'I think'. Every idea or law is an 'I think'. Just that some 'I thinks' are more supported by appropriate communities than others. And nothing wrong with people having 'I thinks'. No one's found the absolute definitions of things carved into stone by an absolute power just yet - we're all just struggling away in a very human endeavour to try and understand the world/universe around us.

[Por_sha911]

For the record, I honestly think that your arguement would sound more credible if you didn't have to resort to personal name-calling like "Mad Scientist" and "Bible-Thumper". I don't recall quoting the Bible nor have I shown any anger or dementia.
Edit: add "Nutbag" to the list.

[Por_sha911]

Sigh, once again, I would ask you to speak to a respected member of the scientific community before you start espousing "there are no facts". If that is true, then NOTHING can be considered "right" or "wrong". Governments, legal systems, the bank that calculates the money in your account are all based on facts that have been proven.
sci•ence \"si-ens\ n [ME, fr. MF, fr. L scientia, fr. scient-, sciens having knowledge, fr. prp. of scire to know] 1 : an area of knowledge that is an object of study; esp : natural science 2 : knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through the scientific method
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved

[350HP930]

Originally posted by gavinlit
No one's found the absolute definitions of things carved into stone by an absolute power just yet

Some people take it as an article of faith that such things have occurred, but then the tablets got stuck in a magic box and lost in the desert somewhere.

Por, you may not be quoting from the bible but dismissing solid science cause some ancient book of fables says otherwise has caused me to develop a theory about your superstitions.

[Por_sha911]

Well, it is past 1 am in my part of the world so I must bid you a good night.

[Por_sha911]

LOL! 350: "solid science" requires FACTS!

[gavinlit]

Ok - see you Joe

"If that is true, then NOTHING can be considered "right" or "wrong". "
I stand by my statement and will happily consult some of my colleagues to see what their thoughts on this are.

Govts and legal systems create laws, hopefully so we can have more fulfilling lives (debatable), but they are not facts. The bank is not working with facts, just agreed standards and conventions.

I don't see how your definition (which by the way is just an 'I think' from a piece of paper) proves the existence of absolute fact. Unless you're suggesting that 'general truths' implies absolute fact. My guess is the dictionary used the expression 'general truth' rather than 'absolute truth' or 'absolute fact' for a reason. Just a hunch. Been a pleasure. Sounds like you're on the hunt for 'absolutes' in life and understandings. Let me know if you find any.

Edit - oh and no need to sigh. Got to perservere with us dummies, that's the only way people end up educated right?

'night

[gavinlit]

So c'mon 350, I'm curious to know if there's a scientific equivalent of an axiom. Or are you going to make me call someone

[IROC]

OK, it comes down to this - if you don't think the theory of evolution is a valid theory, then simply point out where it is incorrect. No one has been able to do that yet, but knock yourself out. There are legions of scientists that would love to see your evidence. If you can't produce some logical reason for throwing out the theory of evolution, then I think you are forced to accept it.

Mike