Bible quotes

[gavinlit]

If truth is constant it sure has taken us a long while to find any example of this. Most ideas/theories/things seem to move over time.

[kang]

Scientists have a different meaning of the word “theory” than we do in popular use. In popular use, the word theory is more like the scientific word hypothesis.

Here is an excerpt from an article in the Washington post describing what theory means:

When scientists speak of the theory of gravitation, cell theory or evolutionary theory, they are talking about scientific concepts that have been so thoroughly tested that they are very unlikely to change. Theories are the results of decades or centuries of scientific effort. They draw on many interconnected observations and ideas. They are the end products of science, not stages on the way to the truth.

The entire article is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48944-2005Mar19.html

Note that gravity is listed as a theory. Speaking of gravity being “just a theory,” here is a tongue in cheek article. Perhaps Kansas will put stickers in the school books stating “Gravity is just a theory.”

CREATIONISTS ANNOUNCE NEW THEORY OF GRAVITY !
by August Berkshire
Today a spokesman for the Institute for Creative Research (I.C.R.), located in Fault Line, California, announced a new theory of gravity that contradicts traditional scientific explanations.
Dwayne Wish, head of the I.C.R., stated, "This is one of the most glorious days in the 6,000 year history of our universe. Finally, we have a theory of gravity that is just as sound as our theory of creation."

Wish went on to explain, "Most scientists think all forces ¬ such as gravity, electricity and magnetism ¬ originally came from a single, common force. They're currently searching in vain for a Grand Unification Theory. But there is no evidence of a common origin! They have never discovered any transitional forces! Where are the missing links?!

"Many scientists also believe gravity is caused by warped space or gravitons," Wish continued. "Has any scientist actually seen this? Was any scientist there when gravity first occurred? And yet they have the gall to claim gravity is part of nature! It is intellectually arrogant to assume gravity is a naturally occurring, rather than a supernaturally occurring phenomenon."

Asked what alternative the I.C.R. proposed, Wish smiled and said, "We're offering a much more plausible explanation for gravity: the Theory of Angelic Pressure. It should be obvious to any rational person that the universe is filled with invisible, undetectable angels who constantly push objects towards the Earth -- objects that would otherwise drift away!

"There is plenty of evidence for our theory," he continued. "For example, in spaceships objects float about randomly. They don't go toward each other unless at least one of them is pushed by an astronaut. This demonstrates that gravity works by design, not 'random chance'."

Asked what research the I.C.R. had done, Wish stated, "In Revelation 8:10 of the Holy Bible it says, 'And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven...' This is a clear reference to the fact that angels are responsible for gravity! In addition, many pagan books, such as the Koran and the Book of Mormon, are also filled with references to angels."

Wish went on to explain that although the Theory of Angelic Pressure is supported by the Bible, it is in no way based on it. "That¹s just a coincidence," he declared.

"Our theory of gravity cannot be disproven, so it should be taught in public schools," Wish continued. "Not to teach it is tantamount to censorship! Moreover, forcing students to believe a secular model of gravity is a violation of academic freedom and freedom of religion! Traditional scientists blithely ignore the axiom that all theories are equally valid."

When it was suggested there might be other equally valid theories, perhaps from other religions, that would explain gravity, Wish vehemently responded, "We have already discredited the 'other model' of gravity. It's obvious our Theory of Angelic Pressure is the only possible alternative.

"In fairness, students should be allowed equal time to hear our theory. Both models of gravity should be presented, then students can make up their own minds. At the very least, someone should take a public opinion poll to see if our theory is popular."

Wish explained that the I.C.R. was establishing a special division to further investigate their theory of gravity. "It's going to be called the Center for Research on Angelic Pressure," he said. "C.R.A.P."

©1999 August Berkshire

http://www.mnatheists.org/august/creationist_gravity.html

[Superman]

Gavin is correct. If it helps to think of "truth" as an immobile, objective final fact, then do so. But in reality, you can find few truths for which there is no convincing argument against. Heck, Einstein even noticed that space and time are not linear. That's hard to get your mental hands around, but it's true. No amount of caffeine can straighten it out. It's curved. The shortest distance between two points is technically NOT a straight line.

[Superman]

I just read the Angelic Theory of Gravity thing. LOL. And it reminds me of yet another school of thought. Some folks think truth is something we largely make up. If we were inclined to prove the Angels theory, we could. And if we bent society in a particular way, the subatomic particle angle would seem silly. This train of thought is interesting, and has plenty of basis. It suggests that our world is shaped the way it is, not by Someone Else in ways we discover, but by us, in the ways we interpret and observe. Indeed, there are those who suspect that our minds change stuff. It's all pretty interesting, though this last stuff is the stuff of REAL headaches. Pretty hard to think of stuff, and at the same time exclude the stuff that puts that stuff in perspective. It's like thinking about the universe, and leaving out the concept of Time and Space. Indeed, Time and Space are largely nonexistent, except that they are the glue that holds the system together. We have them because without them we';d have nothing.

[kang]

Originally posted by Superman
...Some folks think truth is something we largely make up...

Personally, I think that religion (and god) is something that society has created, but that is a subject for another day. Do some Google searches on “social origins of religion,” "origins of religious thought," and similar topics if you are interested.

[gavinlit]

It's funny Alfred because that negative by a negative thing is something I deal with at work (teaching prospective mathematics teachers) and I think you'd find that a quick survey amongst secondary mathematics teachers would also reveal many don't know why this is the case. At least that's what I've found in this part of Australia. I don't see why it's childish - perfectly legitimate question.

Happy to scan an article (or provide references) & some course notes if anyone would like them (hmm, this is getting susupiciously close to work now - may have to send an invoice to Pelican )

I think questions like that are really good for seeing how many people have a solid grasp of basic concepts & how many are just following a line of thought or procedure they were taught. Mind you, there's also the case where many may simply have forgotten (or not taken in) what they did back in a maths class when they were 12 or so. Many of us in that boat I'd say.

EDIT - I also believe blind faith in anything (including science) can be dangerous. Always good to question things and good scientific practice is based on this principle.

[gavinlit]

Reminds me of the old applied/pure mathematician distinction.
Applied mathematician - well it probably can be proved but we'll leave that to the pure mathematicians. It's enough for us that it seems to model the system.
Pure mathematician - what do you mean what's it used for?? That's for the applied mathematicians out there. We're just playing a game - as long as you can prove it's true that's all that matters.

Ok - now, because you've got me started, here's two maths quotes I like:
"I had a feeling once about Mathematics - that I saw it all. Depth beyond depth was revealed to me - the Byss and Abyss. I saw - as one might see the transit of Venus or even the Lord Mayor's Show - a quantity pasing through infinity and changing its sign from plus to minus. I saw exactly why it happened and why the tergiversation was inevitable but it was after dinner and I let it go."
Sir Winston Spencer Churchill

"The mathematician may be compared to a designer of garments, who is utterly oblivious of the creatures whom his garments may fit. To be sure, his art originated in the necessity for clothing such creatures, but this was long ago; to this day a shape will occsionally appear which will fit into the garment as if the garment had been made for it. Then ther is no end of surprise and delight"
Dantzig

[350HP930]

To properly handle the mathematics involved in multiplying and dividing negative numbers you need a two dimensional vector system that is made up of of a real and imaginary component.

The reason this second axis is called imaginary is due to the fact that it was created solely for the sake of multiplying and dividing negative numbers.

If you desire to learn more about the subject here is a good place to start. Any advanced engineer would be lost or incompetent without a thorough understanding of complex numbers (i.e. i^2 = -1).

http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~ibs/quantum/complex.pdf

[gavinlit]

Check out this link for a different look at complex numbers (anyone have to use those 'Betty and Jim' arithmetic books at school when they were younger? UUgh.

http://mathforum.org/johnandbetty/

[adrian jaye]

Originally posted by Moses
[B]That's completely wrong. "Evolution" is simply the alteration of a population over time secondary to changes in genetic material.

Consider this simple example;

If we want to examine the effects of change in a human population, it would take a long time as our generation time averages more than 20 years. So let's look at a healthy strain of unmolested E. Coli with a generation time of less than 30 minutes. We can study genetic changes that occur over 50 generations in a single day!

Thats very true, by the way I think berlei did a study saying that womens breasts over the past 50 years, have gone up on average a cup size, and women are maturing quicker than they were

to illustrate my point

[IROC]

Originally posted by Alfred1
Well, there's another engineer who got it wrong. In order to be able to understand the multiplication of complex numbers you must first be able to understand the multiplication of real numbers.

What is the object of your "multiplication test"? I am an engineer and use math every day. Are you suggesting that if I don't answer your question correctly, then my abilities as an engineer are diminished? What does multiplying -2 x -2 have to do with the theory of evolution?

I assume you apply this same test to your dentist? Because surely he's not qualified to do a root canal if he can't explain why mutliplying two negative numbers yields a positive number.

Mike

[David McLaughlin]

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old one has gone, the new has come!
-2 Corinthians 5:17

[widebody911]

Here I sit all broken hearted...
-Stall:6

[stuartj]

Originally posted by David McLaughlin
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old one has gone, the new has come!
-2 Corinthians 5:17

It is just sad when people throw out bible verses to support the existence of god.

Who said it, I cant remember. God is an imaginary friend for grown ups.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Alfred1
Matthew 15:14 (King James Version)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. [/B]

Trouble with that quote from the scriptures, it is its sort of multi-purpose.

[David McLaughlin]

Originally posted by stuartj
It is just sad when people throw out bible verses to support the existence of god.

Who said it, I cant remember. God is an imaginary friend for grown ups.

incase you didn't read the subject of this thread, it's named "Bible quotes". The fact that the thread turned into a debate over the existance if God has nothing to do with my post.

I find that following the Bible has given me an inner peace that I didn't have before. That works for me. If indeed there is nothing after I die, than I'll have at lease had that peace in my last years. If the Bible is right, then I'll receive my reward. No loss there.

[widebody911]

So xtianity is kinda like a protection racket...

[IROC]

Originally posted by David McLaughlin
I find that following the Bible has given me an inner peace that I didn't have before. That works for me. If indeed there is nothing after I die, than I'll have at lease had that peace in my last years. If the Bible is right, then I'll receive my reward. No loss there.

If you gain some personal benefit from the bible and religion, that is wonderful. Really. Why not leave it an your own personal inner peace, though? Why do Christians feel the need to get other people to "join the club" by prosetylizing, posting bible quotes, etc.? Why do they try and get their mythology taught in our schools?

Mike

[David McLaughlin]

Why not just let like minded people converse instead of telling them they are wrong?

[IROC]

The first few posts in this thread were poking fun at some of the more ridiculous quotes from the bible. Is that the "like minded" group you're aligning with?

Unfortunately, the "like minded" people you speak of are doing more than simply conversing among themselves. They are trying to force their beliefs on others (such as demanding "equal time" for teaching creationism in schools).

I admit that I am guilty of not sitting still and allowing that to happen quietly.

Mike