Going Postal again.........

[Rick Lee]

Why doesn't this ever happen at FedEx or UPS or DHL?

BTW, the cops shot an unarmed man in his driveway on my street last week. It was 150 ft. from my front door, which was open at the time. I heard the whole thing. I love gunfire, but not anywhere near my house. It does feel different when it's in your own neighborhood.

[KevinP73]

Hey while we're on the subject Michael, you heard from Scott lately? I haven't noticed him posting.

[singpilot]

Nope. Been a while.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by dhoward
Tell it to the copper tasing you.
That's just a dumb thing to say.

You really don't know much, hom.

What kind of scenario did you have in mind with that response?

If I carry a weapon, it's for SELF DEFENSE only. Any cop with or without a taser has nothing to worry about from me, unless he attacks me.

Can you guess what would happen in that event?

No, you probably can't.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Why doesn't this ever happen at FedEx or UPS or DHL?

BTW, the cops shot an unarmed man in his driveway on my street last week. It was 150 ft. from my front door, which was open at the time. I heard the whole thing. I love gunfire, but not anywhere near my house. It does feel different when it's in your own neighborhood.

That sounds like bad business. Did you get any details?

[Rick Lee]

Yes Pat, long sad story. IAD is involved and interviewed me. Shooting could not have been an accident. Scary part was that it was an undercover sting with SWAT and all and I was getting out of my truck with my SIG in my hand 5 min. before it all went down. Thank God, they weren't watching me.

[Rick Lee]

Sorry for the hijack. This is what happened on my street in a very safe neighborhood last week.

SWAT Tactics at Issue After Fairfax Shooting

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 27, 2006; B01

Salvatore J. Culosi Sr. still can't believe his son, a 37-year-old optometrist, was a suspected sports bookie. He can't believe a heavily armed SWAT team fatally shot his unarmed son, Salvatore J. Culosi Jr., outside his Fair Oaks home Tuesday night.

And Culosi can't believe that the SWAT team's sudden descent on his son, apparently causing one officer to accidentally fire a .45-caliber handgun once into his son's chest, is standard procedure for Fairfax County police conducting a search.

"We are outraged that current police protocol would ever allow something like this to happen," Culosi, 63, said last night. "The fact is that there was zero basis whatsoever for the officers involved to have any weapons drawn in this situation."

Culosi added: "Sal was alone and unarmed. He was compliant with police instructions. He made no threatening movements or gestures. There was no risk of harm to anyone. Anyone, that is, except Sal."

A Fairfax police detective had been making sports bets with Culosi for three months, court records show, and on Tuesday night police planned to arrest Culosi and search his townhouse on Cavalier Landing Court. But Fairfax Police Chief David M. Rohrer said a 17-year police veteran with long experience in the tactical unit accidentally fired his gun, killing Culosi.

The officer was not named, and police could not say why his gun went off.

Although police and firearms authorities were divided yesterday on whether SWAT teams are needed for most search warrants, as is Fairfax's practice, they agreed on another point: Officers carrying guns should not aim directly at anyone or have their fingers on the trigger until they are absolutely ready to fire.

"In my opinion, there are no accidental discharges," said John Gnagey, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association. Gnagey was not familiar with the Fairfax case but said that in general, "Most of what we see in law enforcement are negligent discharges, fingers being on the trigger when they shouldn't be."

Gnagey was in the camp that thought "SWAT teams shouldn't be doing all warrants." But once there, "the weapons are not pointed at anybody."

Fairfax police declined to discuss their tactical unit policies. But police officials acknowledged that the tactical team, using bulletproof vests, high-powered weapons and other police tools, serves nearly all of the warrants after an investigation has found probable cause to seize evidence -- whether it is bloody clothes, weapons or documents.

In Culosi's case, police were looking for records they suspected he kept after undercover Detective David J. Baucom spent three months placing bets with him on NFL games, according to Baucom's affidavit for the search warrant. A document filed yesterday by Baucom indicates that police entered Culosi's townhouse at 10:13 p.m. Tuesday, about 40 minutes after the fatal shooting.

Police found betting slips, currency, "suspected cocaine" and an unspecified amount of "U.S. currency," according to Baucom's "Inventory of Seized Property." Sources close to the investigation said that police found $38,000 cash in Culosi's home and that the suspected cocaine was a small amount.

Though most Fairfax officers are issued 9mm handguns, tactical unit officers sometimes are issued more powerful weapons. Police confirmed yesterday that Culosi, who graduated from Bishop O'Connell High School and the University of Virginia, was shot with a .45-caliber pistol made by Heckler & Koch, a larger weapon that authorities said would not have a trigger that could be easily tripped.

"It's a very safe gun," said David Yates, a local firearms trainer and range safety officer. "Very high quality. Not a hair trigger. Very reliable. Very accurate."

Yates said there were two possible reasons why Culosi was shot: "Ignorance and carelessness." And because police said the officer was highly trained, he couldn't have been ignorant of gun-safety procedures, Yates said.

"We're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight," Yates said. "But it's not an accident."

Stuart A. Meyers, head of OpTac International, which trains police and counterterrorism tactical squads worldwide, said threat assessments should be done before search warrants are served. But because SWAT officers are better trained and equipped, Meyers said, "SWAT teams should serve, in our opinion, almost all search warrants with the exception of document searches and low-level search warrants."

Gnagey said tactical teams should be used only when police have reason to suspect danger. But some noted that sports bookmakers often deal in cash and might be expected to carry a gun to defend themselves against criminals, if not police.

Meyers and others said SWAT officers should have their guns drawn and ready, "but your finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you're preparing to shoot someone."

Culosi's father said Fairfax police protocol of serving warrants with weapons drawn "should scare and frighten everyone. Such protocol needs to be immediately changed, or an accident like this will happen again."

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Sorry for the hijack. This is what happened on my street in a very safe neighborhood last week.

SWAT Tactics at Issue After Fairfax Shooting

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 27, 2006; B01

Salvatore J. Culosi Sr. still can't believe his son, a 37-year-old optometrist, was a suspected sports bookie. He can't believe a heavily armed SWAT team fatally shot his unarmed son, Salvatore J. Culosi Jr., outside his Fair Oaks home Tuesday night.

And Culosi can't believe that the SWAT team's sudden descent on his son, apparently causing one officer to accidentally fire a .45-caliber handgun once into his son's chest, is standard procedure for Fairfax County police conducting a search.

"We are outraged that current police protocol would ever allow something like this to happen," Culosi, 63, said last night. "The fact is that there was zero basis whatsoever for the officers involved to have any weapons drawn in this situation."

Culosi added: "Sal was alone and unarmed. He was compliant with police instructions. He made no threatening movements or gestures. There was no risk of harm to anyone. Anyone, that is, except Sal."

A Fairfax police detective had been making sports bets with Culosi for three months, court records show, and on Tuesday night police planned to arrest Culosi and search his townhouse on Cavalier Landing Court. But Fairfax Police Chief David M. Rohrer said a 17-year police veteran with long experience in the tactical unit accidentally fired his gun, killing Culosi.

The officer was not named, and police could not say why his gun went off.

Although police and firearms authorities were divided yesterday on whether SWAT teams are needed for most search warrants, as is Fairfax's practice, they agreed on another point: Officers carrying guns should not aim directly at anyone or have their fingers on the trigger until they are absolutely ready to fire.

"In my opinion, there are no accidental discharges," said John Gnagey, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association. Gnagey was not familiar with the Fairfax case but said that in general, "Most of what we see in law enforcement are negligent discharges, fingers being on the trigger when they shouldn't be."

Gnagey was in the camp that thought "SWAT teams shouldn't be doing all warrants." But once there, "the weapons are not pointed at anybody."

Fairfax police declined to discuss their tactical unit policies. But police officials acknowledged that the tactical team, using bulletproof vests, high-powered weapons and other police tools, serves nearly all of the warrants after an investigation has found probable cause to seize evidence -- whether it is bloody clothes, weapons or documents.

In Culosi's case, police were looking for records they suspected he kept after undercover Detective David J. Baucom spent three months placing bets with him on NFL games, according to Baucom's affidavit for the search warrant. A document filed yesterday by Baucom indicates that police entered Culosi's townhouse at 10:13 p.m. Tuesday, about 40 minutes after the fatal shooting.

Police found betting slips, currency, "suspected cocaine" and an unspecified amount of "U.S. currency," according to Baucom's "Inventory of Seized Property." Sources close to the investigation said that police found $38,000 cash in Culosi's home and that the suspected cocaine was a small amount.

Though most Fairfax officers are issued 9mm handguns, tactical unit officers sometimes are issued more powerful weapons. Police confirmed yesterday that Culosi, who graduated from Bishop O'Connell High School and the University of Virginia, was shot with a .45-caliber pistol made by Heckler & Koch, a larger weapon that authorities said would not have a trigger that could be easily tripped.

"It's a very safe gun," said David Yates, a local firearms trainer and range safety officer. "Very high quality. Not a hair trigger. Very reliable. Very accurate."

Yates said there were two possible reasons why Culosi was shot: "Ignorance and carelessness." And because police said the officer was highly trained, he couldn't have been ignorant of gun-safety procedures, Yates said.

"We're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight," Yates said. "But it's not an accident."

Stuart A. Meyers, head of OpTac International, which trains police and counterterrorism tactical squads worldwide, said threat assessments should be done before search warrants are served. But because SWAT officers are better trained and equipped, Meyers said, "SWAT teams should serve, in our opinion, almost all search warrants with the exception of document searches and low-level search warrants."

Gnagey said tactical teams should be used only when police have reason to suspect danger. But some noted that sports bookmakers often deal in cash and might be expected to carry a gun to defend themselves against criminals, if not police.

Meyers and others said SWAT officers should have their guns drawn and ready, "but your finger shouldn't be on the trigger unless you're preparing to shoot someone."

Culosi's father said Fairfax police protocol of serving warrants with weapons drawn "should scare and frighten everyone. Such protocol needs to be immediately changed, or an accident like this will happen again."

Damn.

While I can't say for certain, this smells like more than an AD, it smells like a police crime to coverup other criminal activity.

I'll run it by a police friend of mine. We don't always see eye to eye on such things, but he's honest to a fault.

[Rick Lee]

I just don't see how the shooter could have been involved other than by official duty, since another cop had been betting with this guy for 3 mos. as part of the investigation. If he had double-tapped him, that would have at least given him some plausible claim for cause. Accidentally shooting someone with a double-action H&K is next to impossible. I sadi this to the IAD guy, told him I had a few SIG's and the first pull is 100% deliberate. He said "I tend to agree with you there."

[Joe Bob]

Some of he coments here are in bad taste, I/we know some of the people killed and it happened three miles from my office.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by fastpat
You really don't know much, hom.

What kind of scenario did you have in mind with that response?

If I carry a weapon, it's for SELF DEFENSE only. Any cop with or without a taser has nothing to worry about from me, unless he attacks me.

Can you guess what would happen in that event?

No, you probably can't.

Luckily, you walk around with a sign on your forehead stating that no one has anyone to fear from you carrying a weapon into a venue where it's prohibited. Violates the conditions of your CCP in my state. Oh, wait. I forgot. The laws of society don't apply to you.
You appear to know even less, and have never grasped the term 'tongue-in-cheek'.

[Vipergrün]

This happened in my home town and my folks know some familes who work there, so take it easy, huh, guys... Dan, Mike, hope you guys are going ok. For those of you who do not know, Goleta is a small city adjacent to UC Santa Barbara, on the coast just North of SB. It's not like it's LA or something. This is one of those things your would not think would happen in a town like ours.

[red-beard]

The sad thing is that the Acts of the previous employees going 'Postal' prevented anyone at the Post office from being able to defend themselves.

[Rick Lee]

One armed employee could have stopped the whole thing.

[red-beard]

Actually, something similar happened at my last year. And several years back, one of the plants at GE in South Carolina. Now they have metal detectors and bag searches.

[campbellcj]

This is sad news on many levels -- failure of our mental health checks & balances to catch people before they 'escalate' to this catastophic kind of act, failure of a $70 Billion/Yr. organization to provide adequate security for its facilities, and failure of all of us to ensure our own rights to self-defense against situations like this one, or worse.

I already stayed the heck away from USPS facilities except an unavoidable couple times a year; now I'll work on reducing it further. Drop boxes and internet postage/airbills are looking might good these days...

Condolences to the victims and innocent bystanders.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Rick Lee Why doesn't this ever happen at FedEx or UPS or DHL?

Actually this has happened at FedEx, and inside an airplane to boot. A company employee got in a plane flying to Memphis then attacked the flight crew with a hammer. He wanted to crash the plane into the HQ there because he found out that he was going to be fired.

The crew were able to subdue the man and landed the plane. The pilots were injured so badly that all three of them are now disabled and not allowed to work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Flight_705

[red-beard]

Wow! Maybe this is where Bin Laden found the idea for 9/11!