The Beginning of Life

[svandamme]

Originally posted by tcar
That's a result of better diet, health and sanitation.

Evolution doesn't happen in 100 years.

evolution happens all the time and all evolution is due to external factors


a small increase in lenght , is not ground breaking evolution , i'll agree, but all the small bits over 100 times 100 years do add up

the genes that are successfull at a given timeframe under certain external factors will remain, the genes that aren't get rooted out...(something that might be a problem these days as man overrules nature by keeping certain defects in the genepool by artificial means, sounds harsh , maybe , but it's not untrue)

[artplumber]

Originally posted by IROC
Actually we have observed what you are calling "macro" evolution:...

From:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe

Mike

Mike,
I encourage you to read your own reference. The examples cited are first, largely experimental, ie selections are performed which are not observed in nature, and second generally incomplete at least by several standards which the author presents as criteria for speciation. As an example, incubating single cell organisms in the presence of a predator change the morphology of the cell. This does not alter the genetic makeup of the cell, merely it's morphology. Intuitively, one can see that simple morphologic criteria do not alter the genetic heritage, if you will, of the original cell (no statement about what the cell line looks like if it returns to a nonpredated incubator is made either).

In medicine, although a number bacterial pathogens have developed resistance to antibiotics because of the widespread use of antibiotics, the resistant bacteria have not been reclassed as new sp simply because of this phenotypic (& sometimes partial genetic) change.

The author you quote notes the difficulty with the definition of speciation and then proceeds to predominantly utilize the loosest defn's in his examination of the experiments' outcomes.

What I (and perhaps others) are stating, is that no clearly defined speciation has occurred in the "wild". The closest thing, to my knowledge is alteration in phenotypic frequency, but within the same gene pool - example Monarch butterflys orange and black, more orange until coal burning, then more black (presumed because of improved camo on soot blackened trees), or antibiotic resistance of bacteria.

[trekkor]

New track tires....mmmmmm.



OK, so just because some scientists say evolution is true and the masses believe this because smart guys said so, it must be true?

Evolution CANNOT be proven. That's why it is referred as the theory of...


Where are the mutated life forms changing before our eyes?

There are none.

It's all about accountability. Nobody wants to answer to anyone.

Back to Legion, The Creator is responsible for all the good things you see around you.

The chaos that's troubles most of us is "man dominating man to his injury..." Eccl. 8:9


KT

[svandamme]

oh boy ,

let's take this theory
the creator or also God if you will , is supposed to be all knowing , all seeying and omnipotent

he's also supposed to be good and just
God is Love according to the the new testament and the teachings of Jezus..

so if he's all knowing, omnipotent and he created us
then how come there is so much pain and misery in the world?
how do you explain Hitler , Sadam, all those other evil things like North Korea and all the torturing all over the world , all through history, much of it in His name??

answer me that one

if God is Love, and omnipotent, then why didn't he bother to either make us and this world without all those "defects"

if his word, and believing in him is so important, why all the doubt, and options? why does he allow multiple fractions of religion , all based on the same core deity to fight and kill and mame in his name on a daily basis??

either God is not Onmipotent, in which case, is he really a God?
or God isn't loving at all, and mearly sees us as entertainment, in which case he's not in the business of providing afterlife or heaven for that matter, were just the Cabaret...

why do we call some group like Scientology a semi cult
but does a big portion of the population believe something because it happens to have been a popular thing to believe since 2000 years... for all we know , when it started out , it was no different then Scientology now without the books, or electronic information .... just hearsay...

[trekkor]

answer me that one

Certainly!

Just not here.
You can PM me if you like.

I will answer ALL of your questions...From the Bible.
You'll either be satisfied or you won't.


KT

[svandamme]

nice try

[artplumber]

Stijn,
I hope that the issue you raise is not the reason you choose to believe or not believe, because it is a side issue to the question raised in this thread.

However, if you would like to not communicate w/Trekkor or anyone else here and are seriously considering answering some of the questions/corollaries you raise, a good place to start is When bad things happen to good people Harold Kushner (Jewish - hope that doesn't bother you).

[svandamme]

Jewish doesn't bother me, but i have no need to believe in anything

i find it perfectly acceptable that nature has taken it's course so far, and at some point i will die, lights out, my ego will no longer exist, my remains will recycle in nature...

I do not have any fear for death , nor do i fear beeing wrong in my beliefs... i do uphold basic standards of conduct, i strive to be good as well as i can, i do not steal, rob, or hurt people, not emotionally or physically, i'm not cruel to animals old people or children
i've done stupid things growing up , lot's of melodrama and i have to live with that, i cannot undo that by becoming religious, i can make sure there's no more of that...
so in any case, if there is a God, and he's pissed at me when i arrive at his pearly gates, then i guess he's going to be pissed at a lot more people, many of which actually do go to church,synagoge or mosque on a weekly basis, so either way , i don't have anything to loose

if i have to believe something, i'm more inclined to dig the Zen Budhist thing, which is a completely pacifistic phylosophy, has no history of death in it's name, does not scare people into believing through threats of what happens to ones soul in the afterlife and has a general message of balance, peace and acceptance of the good and the bad in life...

the only way religion has a point , is because of fear of the unknown
the stuff before the beginning of times, and the afterlife, if any
i cannot see any reason for any deity to make it so complex, just because, or as a test , so the only conclusion for me is that it doesn't matter, if the planet blows up in a thermonuclear war, then nature will carry on , one way or another, if our Sun goes supernova and swallows the pile of dirt,iron and water we call earth, then so be it, the universe will continue doing it's thing, maybe some life will exist elsewhere, maybe not... i as a person , am insignificant in the big picture...
so i might as well accept things as they are, try to have some fun and try to be good from personal , principal perspective, i have to live with myself and those are the rules i've set for me...

[svandamme]

oh, and for the record, i'm willing to discuss things on a forum but i'm not taking it offline in PM mode, if it can't be discussed out in the open , then it's not worth discussing

[scottmandue]

Food for though:

Some guy on a ship observed some animals had some ideas and wrote them down, his name was Darwin. Some other people read his book and added to his ideas and came up with some very good theories as to how things came to be.

Just people with ideas.

I agree there is much adaptation/mutation/evolution that can be observed and documented within a species. For Darwinian evolution to be true animals would have to cross species and therein lie one big problem for the evolution theory.

[artplumber]

Stijn,
The discussion would be a fairly long one, hence, my suggestion.

EDIT: as a post script, I thought you did have some "questions" on another thread when you weren't feeling as well - maybe I don't recall correctly.

[svandamme]

i've seen many long discussions on this board... there's no rush, if i zone out and get bored, i'm sure someone else will pick up the thread untill eventually it bleeds dry and drops down till it is nothing more then old and unused bits and bytes in Waynes DB, and i'm sure Wayne will eventually erase the old crap to make room for the new...bit like nature...and from time to time , there will be a need for new features, and Wayne will upgrade his system, make it evolve... untill at some point nobody cares about Porsches anymore, and this board too , will be no more...

i have no need to get off my ass to get a book on religion, i might read it if it magically appeared in my inbox, but most likely i'll drop it half way

[svandamme]

i had some panick attacks, more a psycholgical issues due to stress, it doesn't mean i fear death... those attacks came when i was half a sleep , not conscience, if anything , it was a subconscience fear of pain or illness, which my doctor has assured me , i have a clean bill of health and the attacks are pretty much resolved now...

[artplumber]

Originally posted by svandamme
...

i have no need to get off my ass to get a book on religion, i might read it if it magically appeared in my inbox, but most likely i'll drop it half way

The book addresses the questions you've asked. Your choice to find/read.

[svandamme]

i have my own answer for those questions and they make sense to me

[930addict]

Originally posted by on-ramp
about a millionth of a second before the explosion (big bang), the universe was the size of a small marble.....

If the universe was the size of a small marble, what would we call the space that it was in? In other words, now we see the universe as containing everything in existance like the stars, other planets, other galaxies, life etc. By the above logic, the "small marble" that exploded would have to have been located somewhere. Thus, wouldn't that mean that there is something beyond, or outside, of our universe?

This kind of leads me to a question that I sometimes ponder. If there is a God, where did he come from? When you try to fathom "eternity" or just the concept of existance it truly boggles the mind - well at least mine.

[sammyg2]

Stijn, we cannot experience joy without first experiencing sorrow. We cannot have love without hate.
There is not life without death.
Just because we don't fully comprehend something does not mean that god does not comprehend it.

On-ramp,
Throughout history there have been lots of theories that were not proven at the time, but eventually were proven and accepted as fact.
Prior to the time they were proven were these theories wrong?
No, they were as right then as they are now. the only difference is at that time people who beeived them to be true could not prove they were true.
Some day the human race may obtain unlimited knowledge and understanding. Until that time, we must accept that certain things that can't be proven may or not be true. Einstein's theory of relativity can't be proven yet but most scientists believe it, are they insane?

To say that believing in something that can't be proven is insanity is the most ridiculous thing I have read in this forum and that is quite an accomplishment.
You should be proud of yourself, in a twisted dark way ..........

[svandamme]

it always comes down to the inability to define infinity
and what can't be defined, must be devine

i recommend a high dose of acid, 400microgram+ dose
guaranteed to offer fresh perspective

sammy i never called anything insanity...that was onramp, not me
i just said that personally i view religion as something i cannot accept...


edit ,just noticed you did refer to onramp

[svandamme]

that no joy without pain , that's just basic relativity, and that's nothing i find usefull in a religious way
all Abrahamic faiths have an afterlife and heaven thing
the definition of heaven , if there is such a thing , is nothing but good things

so contradiction arises, if heaven is nothing but good things , for eternity
then that must be very boring, and as such hellish

to me that's not something i can believe in , so the only thing that makes sense to me , is that when the lights go out, they simply go out...

the pain / joy relativity is also not something that makes sense in many cases of extreme evil, why would any god allow a character like Mengele, to experiment on children and babies, that haven't even develloped a proper ego, and died due to Mengele's actions
if there is no joy to follow , then why would god allow it in his creations(creationism includes Mengele and the likes of him), if he is omnipotent , and all knowing and good
and you cannot convince me , that there is a purpose for what Mengele did, and that his victims go to heaven and all is well, as i said, heaven does not make sense to me

the only thing that i might find decent is reincarnation , since that doesn't retain the ego and as such eternity is reset...

[Nathans_Dad]

Svandamme, I'm not trying to sling mud here, but if you are happy with your own ideas and answers to life's questions and are not interested in looking into what other people think, why are you posting on this thread again?