"Conservative" Freedom?

[snowman]

Almost every founder of America was a zealot. To risk you life, to move to an unknown place, savages and wild animals abound, you did it for a reason and you were a zealot.

Not only that, many were socialists. That’s how they soon found out that they were on the wrong course or became extinct. That’s why socialism is so looked down upon here.. we have PROVEN that it cannot work.

[RPKESQ]

Yes, many, including some of our Founding Fathers came here is escape the religious tyranny that existed in Europe. Many of them did not want god to have any role in our new government. What justifies your proposed treatment of gays in your opinion? Why do you hate them so?

[RPKESQ]

Also, will you post your evidence that socialism doesn't work?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Also, will you post your evidence that socialism doesn't work?

France.

[RPKESQ]

France is currently the 4th largest world economy, has the best health care system in the world (according to the WHO), has the only commercially viable space program (they actually make money with it), is the only country besides the US to operate nuclear carriers, and on and on. So in your TROLL like post, as always, no facts, no substance, no knowledge, nothing worthwhile. Start the whining.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
France is currently the 4th largest world economy, has the best health care system in the world (according to the WHO), has the only commercially viable space program (they actually make money with it), is the only country besides the US to operate nuclear carriers, and on and on. So in your TROLL like post, as always, no facts, no substance, no knowledge, nothing worthwhile. Start the whining.

I think a lot of so-called conservatives have never traveled abroad -- you know, like good old Dubya before he was 'elected.' What they think they know of foreign countries comes from pundits.

[Jeff Higgins]

http://media.www.bcheights.com/media/storage/paper144/news/2005/11/10/Opinions/Frances.Problems.Stem.From.Socialist.Governments.R efusal.To.Recognize.All-1052942.shtml?sourcedomain=www.bcheights.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

A brief quote from the article linked above:

Socialism is well entrenched in France. Dubbed the "French social model" by its admirers, France has generous pensions, unemployment benefits, protectionist trade policies, and rigid hiring and firing laws. Government enforced 35-hour work weeks, two-hour lunch breaks, and nearly half of GDP devoted to welfare programs characterize this "social model." The result of its these policies is a stratified society in which a large minority is shut out from the job market and one in which minimal economic growth occurs.

There is much more out there for anyone who cares to look.

[RPKESQ]

That is one view, but not the most balanced.

Again and again the French people want these benefits and continue to vote for them. Hard to beleive they would if it was as bad as you say it is. Also, what your link says does not explain the strength and position of France in the world economy, now does it.

Most French workers enjoy 8 weeks paid vacation, child care, medical, education, maternity leave, 35 hour work weeks, much less violence overall than America, the best food in the world, supported art and music programs, they covet and protect family farms, and love life.

US workers are the most productive; but many European workers are more productive per hour worked. But if you enjoy being a worker bee all your life, have at it.

So that's the truth, from one who knows both the US and France quite well.

[Racerbvd]

Well, if it is so great, why aren't you socialist over there?? And why did so much of france burn not too very long ago. It is pretty easy to build up when the good old USA helps fund it after saving the sorry frog asses in W.W. II.

[speeder]

I've spent time in France and there is a lot to be said for their system in terms of people's lifestyle. Most of their citizens live fairly well, and it is a country w/ opportunity to make a better life for yourself through education and applying one's self, just like the USA. It's a beautiful country with a LOT to offer, for visitors and residents. I could easily live there if I had $$. (Since work options would be limited for a non-citizen).

I also love my own country, but we are going through one hell of a rough patch right now due to incompetent/corrupt leadership. I'd rather live in the U.S. as long as the economy holds out, but France would be way better if the bottom ever drops out, IMO.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by techweenie
I think a lot of so-called conservatives have never traveled abroad -- you know, like good old Dubya before he was 'elected.' What they think they know of foreign countries comes from pundits.

That's true of all Americans. We are the most isolated country on Earth, culturally anyway. I'm not even sure travelling abroad helps most Americans; they hit the big tourist traps that are "Americanized" enough to attract them and make them feel comfortable, but just "foreign" enough to make them think they are getting a taste of the local culture. Living abroad, or at least in much closer proximity to other countries where you meet and deal with its people regularly, would broaden most Americans' perspectives.

I had that priveledge as a kid, up into my late teens, when I was spending summers in Germany with my Oma and Opa. While that is still lacking in the adult perspective of making a living and participating at that level in their society, I guess it was better than nothing. All of my cousins, aunts, and uncles on my mom's side still live there, so I do get to hear their perspective. We are actually entertaining a couple of my cousins right now. Anyway, Americans as a whole could really stand to get out more...

[RPKESQ]

Racerbvd wrote:
Well, if it is so great, why aren't you socialist over there?? And why did so much of france burn not too very long ago. It is pretty easy to build up when the good old USA helps fund it after saving the sorry frog asses in W.W. II.


Well my little myopic friend, the answer is probably the same as why did Americans go live in France after they saved our sorry poor asses in the American Revolution. This who saved who routine that so many Americans like to do is really shortsighted and disingenuous. Many countries have helped each other for various reasons though out history. How come we have such limited memories or knowledge of history that we can only recall who was at bat last?

We have various socialist programs right here in America. Look them up, they exist and have for a long time. We have in our recent past had large parts of our cities burn in this country due to racism and economic injustice; Just like France suffered recently (although the news reports painted a much exaggerated picture, damage in the US was many times the amount in France). So how are we better?

The painfully childish attacks on other countries are symptomatic of the lack of knowledge and education about the rest of the world we see in the Islamic fundamentalist’s rants. What makes you so similar to them?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Racerbvd wrote:
Well, if it is so great, why aren't you socialist over there?? And why did so much of france burn not too very long ago. It is pretty easy to build up when the good old USA helps fund it after saving the sorry frog asses in W.W. II.


Well my little myopic friend, the answer is probably the same as why did Americans go live in France after they saved our sorry poor asses in the American Revolution. This who saved who routine that so many Americans like to do is really shortsighted and disingenuous. Many countries have helped each other for various reasons though out history. How come we have such limited memories or knowledge of history that we can only recall who was at bat last?

We have various socialist programs right here in America. Look them up, they exist and have for a long time. We have in our recent past had large parts of our cities burn in this country due to racism and economic injustice; Just like France suffered recently (although the news reports painted a much exaggerated picture, damage in the US was many times the amount in France). So how are we better?

The painfully childish attacks on other countries are symptomatic of the lack of knowledge and education about the rest of the world we see in the Islamic fundamentalist’s rants. What makes you so similar to them?

You still haven't answered, why don't you move back there??

[RPKESQ]

I am quite happy to answer for myself (sorry, I thought you were asking a rhetorical question). I have family here and I do business in both the US and Europe. I have a base for operation here in the states and one in France for European operations. So I live both places. I pay taxes in both places and enjoy the best of both. I will eventually retire to France.

I don’t limit my thinking, knowledge or tolerance; especially concerning things I have little or no understanding off. I’m not saying that you do, just my impression from your posts.

You on the other hand have not addressed any points I brought up in my posts. How about posting evidence for your claims of socialism's failure?

[Racerbvd]

The fall of the USSR, New Orleans are a good start.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
The fall of the USSR, New Orleans are a good start.

Katrina was a big, giant, spinning mass of socialism?

[Superman]

I think you guys should go back to calling each other names. As part of a vicious ideological shouting match.

[snowman]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Yes, many, including some of our Founding Fathers came here is escape the religious tyranny that existed in Europe. Many of them did not want god to have any role in our new government. What justifies your proposed treatment of gays in your opinion? Why do you hate them so?

The people that came to the US did not come to escape from religion, they came to practice religion, that of their own choice. We have religious freedom, not freedom from religion.

The founding fathers were also an intollerant bunch. I have never proposed any specific treatment for gays. If they leave me alone, I leave them alone. They would be well advised to keep thier activity very quiet and private, otherwise a backlash will develop from the majority of the somewhat religious people in this country that think such activity is sinful and also non religous that think it is repulsive.

There are thousands of small villages, towns across the USA that were founded on socialist principles. Names like Friendship are the first clue. Then a little reading about the history of the town and you will find why they were founded. Read history of the Pilgrims, Quakers, Amish, and hundreds of other people going for new lives in some kind of utopia. All have failed in their social goals.

As to the US, we do not have 20 percent unemployment like France. Germany started 2 world wars because of socialism.

[RPKESQ]

We may agree that the USSR failed, but that was only one type of socialism (communism) among many other types of socialism. This would be like using as an example that bridges always fail when you have only a very few of one type that have failed (I would not have used such a broad term as socialism due to the inability to condemn the whole with only evidence of such limited nature, but that is the term you picked). The type most often used in Europe and America is democratic socialism. That seems to be a roaring success in much of Europe and elsewhere. Any further evidence condemning socialism as a whole?

And, I cannot address the Katrina/New Orleans point, as I cannot find any indication that it was caused by, or suffered from any "socialism" that is substantially different than the socialism that is practiced all though the US. Would you please be kind as to enlighten us on this aspect of the Katrina/New Orleans disaster?

[RPKESQ]

Please post the evidence that all the Founding Fathers and early setlers were here to have freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. After all, since there were various religions across Europe, they certainly did not have to cross the dangerous Atlantic to be able to proctice the religion of their choice, they only had to go where it was practiced in Europe. A much easier, cheaper and safer solutiuon. If you read the Founding Fathers own diaries, notes, letters and official documents conected to the creation of the USA, you will find they tried to seperate all religions from government. They never as a group tried to tie to two together.