"Conservative" Freedom?

[RPKESQ]

Snowman, you have consistantly guess or asumed wrongly about me. About as far off base as it possible to be. As you are about your understanding of gays. Why are you so anti-gay? Are you not fully secure in your own sexuality? Is it bible-thumping? Just some great gudience recieved from your parents? Or just simple ignorance?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Jeff Higgins wrote:
1) I have not heard of this re-written Bible

2) I have to disagree(sic) with your assessment(sic) of the religious climate in Europe during the founding years of our nation. It simply was not as easy as changing locale to one that better suited your religious preferences; the Catholic church's tentacles stretched all across(sic) Europe.



1) OK, so you are not nearly as well read concerning our Founding Fathers as you think you are. No surprise there. If you do some real research you will discover this as well as their take on religion. You must read and study a lot more.

2) Your disagreement on my assessment of religion in Europe doesn’t hold much value with statements like these. For one thing it’s not my assessment. It is common knowledge among historians. Thousands of people moved from area to area, country to country for better conditions within Europe all during the 1300 through 1700’s (far more than ever came to the New World in the same period), including for religious tolerance or freedom. Again, your knowledge is quite limited. This is not revision, it is simple fact. The records are all there, just waiting for you to read and research. And by the way, please explain how Lutherans, Protestants, etc. in Germany, France, Norway, Denmark, Anglican in England, etc., show how few choices were available to Europeans. Again, your statements are easily shown as patently false.

I have pointed you in the right direction as to further understanding of these issues. But I will not do the work for you.

Wow. I think you may have out done yourself. So many errors, so little time. I'll just quickly point out a couple of the more glaring, then I'll leave you alone.

Simply put, Protestant=Lutheran=Protestant. Martin Luther, and a few of his colleagues, began the Protestant movement. They were one and the same. Your seperation of the two speaks volumes. Have you had any religious training whatsoever? It doesn't show.

Europeans did regularly move about in an effort to find a better life. No one disputes that. That they succeeded to their satisfaction is disputable. The ones that did not, and had the means and the gumption to do so, came here. Yes, that is common knowledge among historians. You have managed to take that common knowledge and garble it just a bit in your own understanding of it. You leave some important parts out as they relate to the New World.

Lastly, are you going to cough up the details on this re-written Bible? You are not playing by your own rules; you demand references and documentation from others. Now you are going to hide behind "If you do some real research you will discover this as well as their take on religion."? Please. You have long since blown your credibility on this forum with your unsupported statements. I guess this just adds to the list. Does your mother know you are on the internet again?

[RPKESQ]

RoninLB wrote:
France's progressive and discriminatory social policies will make them the first Euro country to face a serious Muslim political backlash in coming years imo. Look at population growth figures.

France's economy compares very favorably with Germany's. France has been reforming for the last 25years. What are you trying to say?

Yes, because France has the largest Muslim population outside a Muslim county, France will have to come to better terms with that. Which they are, so did you expect overnight solutions?

Your statement "US social policy is traditional family oriented that encourages a large middle class." is eactly the truth in France; French social policy is traditional family oriented that encourages a large middle class. Even more so than the US!

[RPKESQ]

Oh Jeff, you poor whiner! I told you of the godless bible. Now you are too lazy to look for it yourself? It's not even hard to find. If you think Lutherans and Protestants are always one and the same, YOU are showing your ignorance again. It simply is not true. Try some more off the top of your head statements like that, they are pretty funny!

[snowman]

Originally posted by RoninLB
....
The Founders wanted a clear separation of organized religion and politics. .....
......

That is NOT true. The founders included religous ceremony in many government activities. What they did not want was another church of england, that simple. They practiced their religion freely, in the open, inside as well as outside of government. But they did not sponser a state religion. They also did not allow the state to prevent religous activity, even inside of government. Consequently we have, at least used to have, opening prayers and so forth in many government events.

How else can I be free to practice my religion? If I have to leave my religion at home, thats not freedom, thats intolerance, injustice, slavery. I cannot nor would not impose my religion on others, but I must be free to practice it myself. Government cannot, legally, put any restrictions on my practice. I can pray whenever and where ever I want. Others, out of respect for my rights, must tolerate this, and in return I must tolerate their practices. If 100 people are gathered and 99 are christians, they have the right to a christian prayer. The single person that is not must respect the right of the majority and put up with it. Same reason that gays must shut up and keep quiet. On the other hand the majority must respect the right of the single person not to join in with them. If respect, the foundation of american values, is honored, then everyone can get along, yet not compromise their values.

[nostatic]

does freedom of religion extend to Islam too?

[trekkor]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Trkkor, try to formulate a rational response. Please try. Look up the definition of the word "natural". Read all of it. Then try to at least appear to be able to converse logically.

Actually, you will need to prove that this "acceptable" and "clean" lifestyle you are so happy to promote is natural.


Sodom and Gommorah!!


KT

[snowman]

Originally posted by nostatic
does freedom of religion extend to Islam too?

Hell no. Send them all to their virgins that await.

[IROC]

Originally posted by snowman
That is NOT true. The founders included religous ceremony in many government activities....

Actually it is true. Read Thomas Jefferson's well published thoughts on the subject of the separation of church and state.

To quote:

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
-- Thomas Jefferson

the bold is my emphasis...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Oh Jeff, you poor whiner! I told you of the godless bible. Now you are too lazy to look for it yourself? It's not even hard to find. If you think Lutherans and Protestants are always one and the same, YOU are showing your ignorance again. It simply is not true. Try some more off the top of your head statements like that, they are pretty funny!

That's exactly what I thought; you are making it up as you go. Time to put up or shut up, buckwheat. Show us this "godless bible".

The Lutheran church today is but one denomination within the broader Protestant movement. At the time to which we are refering, they were essentially one and the same. The Protestant movement has fractured into many small pieces, but it remained a whole back then. Pretty basic stuff; "religion 101" if you will.

And what it with these constant charges of whining, ignorance, lack of critical thinking, etc. etc. ad nauseum that you feel so compelled to level against those who dissagree with you? Do you think this bolsters your position in some way? Are you able to partake in an adult conversation without the childish name calling?

There are folks on this forum from an incredibly broad range of backgrounds, interests, and expertise. We all learn something from one another and try, at least most of the time, to treat each other with respect. Do you even know what that means? We rib each other pretty hard sometimes, true, but your particular brand of nasty, mean-spirited attack is far different. I think you do not understand the difference; you are like the little kid that has been left out, and in your effort to join in, you are trying to be like the big kids. Your interpretation of how you perceive the big kids behaving but, in your immaturity, that interpretation takes on a childish quality not exhibited within the ranks you so desperately want to join. You are simply not witty enough to pull it off; almost everything you say misses the mark by at least a little bit, if not a country mile. It's fine to present your opinion and your interpretation of a topic, but presenting it as unquestioned fact, accompanied with the attacks, is simply poor form. Especially when that interpretation is wrong (as it is the vast majority of the time) and unsupported. There are folks here with the knowledge to help you learn something. You must first lean, however, to join the conversation at an adult level. That is your biggest hurdle. Good luck with it.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by nostatic
does freedom of religion extend to Islam too?

Absolutely, but you knew that was a rhetorical question. We have lived side-by-side quite happily with Islam in this country for an awfully long time. It's too bad everyone now conjures up images of violent nut cases whenever the word "Islam" is muttered. They have some housecleaning to do. Other religions have had their turn in the past. No one else got thrown off the bus, and Islam should not be now. They cannot be; that would be the first step down a very slippery slope.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by RPKESQ

France's economy compares very favorably with Germany's. France has been reforming for the last 25years. What are you trying to say?

That a rising tide lifts all boats.

Just about every economy in the world is experiencing economic growth. Social policies have made France business unfriendly compared to old Euro and some reformed new Euro like Ireland. Germany has acknowledged its social load on its economy, but action make take yrs due to politics. France doesn't acknowledge that it has a problem competing on a world stage. No surprise as France's national policies attempts to position France in a superior position. Monetary & economic integration problems with the Euro is the most notable, but it's routine France. They became the superior on the world stage after USSR crashed, so they think and act. Notice how France discourages sales of its industry leaders to "outsiders". Notice how France is increasing its control over what gets integrated and what must remain pure France.

Wait till world economics goes thru some convulsions and France's economic growth, economic opportunity, and job creation gets slammed. France's population will look at successful socialist model Finland and ask "What happened?"

The only thing that makes sense for France's future is to invest in developing tourist destinations as many new professionals and college grads are moving out. Maybe Boeing can explain what dynamic capitalism is all about. European aero industry is a fall waiting to happen imo. France will act as a lead weight guaranteeing a failure unless the government supports them.

Politicians and the progressives can't exist without each other in France. Change is difficult under circumstances where only socialist policies control the economy. Change agents do not get elected over there.

Good luck.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
That's exactly what I thought; you are making it up as you go. Time to put up or shut up, buckwheat.

Now Jeff you must be more compassionate with the communist philosophy. First you must understand that there are those who are opinion leaders and Second all others who are meant to serve them. The ACLU and its NYC soldiers etc are only doing what's best for our country. Their meaning is to save us from the reality of being. Their kind of Judiciary is their almighty power of existence. Without them framing the Legislature and the Executive who knows what will become of this country. Their social policy is bonus coupons for the masses that's a freebie.

Isn't that a fa kin su pah of understanding what this country needs?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by nostatic
does freedom of religion extend to Islam too?

As you probably know, Jefferson specifically mentioned Muslims and Hindus (though he spelled them Hindoos) in his letters.

The notion that only Muslims need to 'clean up their acts' is typical non-thinking by the ill-informed. Eric Rudolph had a great deal of Christian support, and many "Christian" groups, including the Army of God, and Christian Identity support killing people they don't agree with -- or who get in the way. These groups have over 50,000 members in the US.

[Superman]

RPKESQ.......I've been here a long time. Not much time lately for stopping by but if I had, I'm sure I would be amused by your interaction with The Board. I have a suggestion for you.

What Jeff says is absolutely accurate. If you want to see yourself in the context of this chat forum, in the way they see you, then you'll need to take a step back. Calm down and watch and listen. Trust me....you don't want to be the rabbit that pokes his head up occasionally (or frequently), as a target for these guys. They are expert marksmen. If you do take a step back, you are going to be impressed. It's okay to argue and banter and even chide. Intelligent people sometimes disagree (until they become as informed as myself, at which point they of course adopt my beliefs).

I've seen it happen many times before. These guys will eviscerate you if you don't take a deep breath and cop some respect and maturity. Sorry to be so blunt and frankly I expect you to not follow this advice. Here's your ball back, kid. You have been warned.

[Superman]

Oh, and if RPKESQ winds up squaring off against Techweenie, somebody send me a PM. That, I've GOT to see.

[RPKESQ]

Funny Techweenie has backed up several of my posts. My respect goes both ways. No one seems to mind that I am called names and insulted. Maybe it's because I am relatively new here. Well, that means little to me. Put up or shut up. When I post a link to the bible I have posted about, do you think Jeff Friggins will apologize? Be adults, if you can't take some harsh words, go cry somewhere else. I bow or pander to no man.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Funny Techweenie has backed up several of my posts. My respect goes both ways. No one seems to mind that I am called names and insulted. Maybe it's because I am relatively new here. Well, that means little to me. Put up or shut up. When I post a link to the bible I have posted about, do you think Jeff Friggins will apologize? Be adults, if you can't take some harsh words, go cry somewhere else. I bow or pander to no man.

Yeah, I'm not sure what we have to disagree about... PM me with your contact info and I'll include you in on the next bowling party I'm setting up with local Pelicanheads. Maybe we can find something to disagree on!

:-)

[Superman]

Okay, that'll teach me to comment out of ignorance.

[RoninLB]

"The notion that only Muslims need to 'clean up their acts' is typical non-thinking by the ill-informed."


Reforming beliefs ain't easy.

The program is not which organized religion is relevant to the greater good. The program is what opinion leaders do with the said religion or its sects.

hmmm.. wonder if the slogan "kill a commie for mommie" fits above?