No to Murtha as Majority Leader

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I forgot. You never get past labels.

Or what the bosses tell you to do.

I'm afraid the Liberal to Conservative/ left-right scale is not a fabrication of the Republicans. It's a fairly accepted way to measure peoples political leanings. If this is offensive to you....then politics probably aren't your best choice for past times.

[Rodeo]

Barry Godwater is "liberal" based on today's fcuked-up inversion, created when the Repubs got in bed with the Religious Right, continuing through the War on Drugs, and exploding with the War on Terror. All government, all the time is today's conservative mantra.

Just look at fint.

Liberals are the new conservatives, dude. Peolsi is your woman. You just need Denis Hastert to spell it out for you

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Barry Godwater is "liberal" based on today's fcuked-up inversion, created when the Repubs got in bed with the Religious Right, continuing through the War on Drugs, and exploding with the War on Terror. All government, all the time is today's conservative mantra.

Just look at fint.

Liberals are the new conservatives, dude. Peolsi is your woman. You just need Denis Hastert to spell it out for you

I didn't see a "Religious" category in the rankings, these ranking are based on her votes in Congress.

They have night classes for this stuff, I can get you some info

[Rodeo]

The religions stuff seeps over into abortion, birth control, gay marriage, right to die, and all the rest of the "social conservative" issues that somehow became considered "conservative" positions.

There's nothing "conservative" about the government telling citizens what medical procedures they can or cannot have. Goldwater was pro choice for that very reason.

And although I probably lost you already (), there's nothing "conservative" about making flag burning a crime, allowing warrantless wiretaps, giving special tax treatment to favored industries, borrowing massive amounts of money to feed massive deficits, or telling jurors what they can and cannot award.

Almost everything considered a "conservative" position today is big government, big business, anti-individual.

Gun control is maybe the single exception, where the so-called conservatives side with the individual over the institutions.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Rodeo
The religions stuff seeps over into abortion, birth control, gay marriage, right to die, and all the rest of the "social conservative" issues that somehow became considered "conservative" positions.

There's nothing "conservative" about the government telling citizens what medical procedures they can or cannot have. Goldwater was pro choice for that very reason.

And although I probably lost you already (), there's nothing "conservative" about making flag burning a crime, allowing warrantless wiretaps, giving special tax treatment to favored industries, borrowing massive amounts of money to feed massive deficits, or telling jurors what they can and cannot award.

Almost everything considered a "conservative" position today is big government, big business, anti-individual.

Gun control is maybe the single exception, where the so-called conservatives side with the individual over the institutions.

I think you should call the Liberal organizations that ranked her a liberal and tell them that they don't know what a liberal is. This is groundbreaking stuff man!

[Rodeo]

Yep, I lost you.

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by Rodeo


There's nothing "conservative" about the government telling citizens what medical procedures they can or cannot have. Goldwater was pro choice for that very reason.

And although I probably lost you already (), there's nothing "conservative" about making flag burning a crime, allowing warrantless wiretaps, giving special tax treatment to favored industries, borrowing massive amounts of money to feed massive deficits, or telling jurors what they can and cannot award.

Almost everything considered a "conservative" position today is big government, big business, anti-individual.

That is correct.

[lendaddy]

Two peas in a pod

Say, I know....lets look at her rankings prior to Bush! How about prior to Clinton? During Reagan maybe?

I'm going to go otut on a limb here and guess (only a guess mind you) that she was ranked extremely liberal then as well. Whatcha think dynamic duo?

[speeder]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Two peas in a pod

Say, I know....lets look at her rankings prior to Bush! How about prior to Clinton? During Reagan maybe?

I'm going to go otut on a limb here and guess (only a guess mind you) that she was ranked extremely liberal then as well. Whatcha think dynamic duo?

You would have to explain how these (non-partisan I'm sure) organisations rank congress members as "liberal" or "conservative" for your assertion to make any sense or have validity. Do they simply count how they voted along party lines? Or is there a more sophisticated rating system that takes into account individual votes? If so, Rodeo and CC may have a valid argument that what you and these organisations are calling "conservative" are in fact anything but.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by speeder
You would have to explain how these (non-partisan I'm sure) organisations rank congress members as "liberal" or "conservative" for your assertion to make any sense or have validity. Do they simply count how they voted along party lines? Or is there a more sophisticated rating system that takes into account individual votes? If so, Rodeo and CC may have a valid argument that what you and these organisations are calling "conservative" are in fact anything but.

Speeder, they are being ranked by (self described)liberals as liberals. There is no conspiracy here.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Whatcha think dynamic duo?

Randy

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I think John Murtha was the most courageous public official in the nation a year ago, when he was the first to acknowledge publicly that Iraq was the disaster everyone privately knew it to be. He was the first to call for a redeployment, which still remains the best of the bad options our president has left us. He held his ground in the face of fierce attacks from the WH, and the country soon realized that he was, and is, right.

That's leadership, a rare commodity these days.

Well, old man, you may have spoken too soon. Things aren't always what they seem, particularly in D.C.

The Mugging of Murtha
Congressional Democrats betray the antiwar movement
by Justin Raimondo

They mugged Jack Murtha, and the voters, Thursday morning. As the House Democratic caucus voted to install Rep. Steny Hoyer in the number-two leadership spot, over at the liberal Huffington Post they were running a large picture of Speaker Nancy and Hoyer making nice for the cameras, in a let's-join-hands photo-op veritably oozing with phoniness. The headline cited Pelosi's message: "We Made History Now Let's Make Progress for the American People." It's like reading the front page of Pravda, circa 1936: "Ten-Year Plan Over-Fulfilled!" over a photo of the Soviet hierarchy posed against the backdrop of the Kremlin.

Back in the half-forgotten days of the Cold War era, Kremlinologists – remember them? – used to carefully monitor the subtleties of these joint appearances: where one official stood, and in relation to whom, supposedly revealed the hidden struggle for power among the inner leadership. Published photos in particular signaled the rise and fall of political fortunes: which is why the Soviets went to the extraordinary lengths of altering photographic evidence that gave comfort to their ideological enemies, literally airbrushing Leon Trotsky and other prominent heretics out of existence.

In this spirit, then, examine the CNN photo of Nancy's coronation and notice its composition: Rahm Emanuel to the left of her, Hoyer to her right – a veritable Praetorian Guard that is little short of menacing. The former torpedoed antiwar candidates in the primary and snubbed them in the general election, while the latter defeated antiwar leader Jack Murtha – frowning in the background – for majority leader on the strength of a smear campaign of extraordinary proportions. Are the men surrounding Madam Speaker an honor guard, or a police escort? Who's in charge here?Read the complete article

[fastpat]

Arrayed against Murtha was a united front of the Democratic Party establishment, from a George Soros-backed "liberal" consumer-complainer group to an anonymously run YouDontKnowJack.org, featuring replays of the infamous Abscam tapes. In the video, Murtha rejects an offer of a bribe while FBI agents disguised as wealthy Arabs – the Borat-style mustaches are a riot – try to lure him into a compromising position, without much success. Murtha was completely exonerated in a subsequent investigation – but that didn't stop the smear brigade from surfacing this age-old sludge.

To hear some Democrats, adherents of an ideology that revolves around the pork barrel, denounce Murtha as "corrupt" is the ultimate in unintentional humor. Aside from the hypocrisy, however, there is the rather more interesting aspect of this contest as a clash of political cultures.

The gruff, regular-guy congressman from Pennsylvania, a longtime friend of the military (and especially veterans), is a typical bring-home-the-bacon congressman of the Democratic breed; not everyone can be Ron Paul. Hammered for calling the "anti-corruption" rules favored by Pelosi "crap," Murtha might have answered that Hoyer calls for a relaxation of the rules involving foreign junkets sponsored by "nonprofit" "educational" organizations – i.e., foreign lobbyists.

Go here for a fascinating breakdown of their respective campaign contributors, which seems to debunk the popular idea that the War Party is simply the voice of the armaments industry. And I would note an intriguing detail: Hoyer has an unusually high total contribution coming from "ideological" and "single-issue" groups.

Unfortunately, there wasn't time to debunk the smears and engage the Hoyerites in a full-fledged debate: the knifing of Murtha was done quickly, in the dark – a secret ballot of the Democratic caucus, and then that phony photo-op. As their mandate lies bleeding on the floor…

The Great Realignment of 2006 lasted a little over a week before it turned into the Great Sellout. It is a perfect illustration of how the War Party controls the leadership of both major parties and maintains its grip on the levers of power. Given near-monopoly status on account of repressive ballot access laws in most states, the parties can thwart the popular will. Given a mandate for peace, the Democratic Party leadership has effectively rejected it and reversed the election results.

Americans voted for peace, and they're going to get more war. That's how our Bizarro democracy works, and all I can say is God bless Bizarro America, land of the duped and home of the cowed.

Back when the Democrats were AWOL on the Iraq issue, Murtha changed the debate over the war by coming out for a rapid American withdrawal. His stance caused a sensation: here was a conservative Democrat, a veteran Marine, whose campaign chest is heavy with cash from the defense sector, surely no Dennis Kucinich – and he wants us out now! Close to the military establishment, Murtha is seen to reflect opinion in the senior ranks that this war is unwinnable and likely to spread, stretching the fighting capacity of the world's last superpower to the breaking point. His high-profile stance represented a threat and had to be smashed – as it was.

It is instructive to observe how readily supposedly "liberal" groups stabbed the antiwar movement in the back by fueling the "Murtha = corruption" meme: they caviled that the conservative Catholic congressman is anti-abortion and not exactly a San Francisco Democrat, either in style or substance. With his blue-collar demeanor, Murtha is the exact opposite of the white-wine-and-brie crowd – i.e., big business and the "labor" aristocracy – that mobilized around Hoyer.

As support for a quick exit from Iraq gathers strength among the public, the Washington elite draws closer together in defense of a failed policy, and the differences between the Democrats and Republicans begin to meet and merge. In the face of a popular rebellion against the madness of our foreign policy, both wings of the War Party present a united front against the electoral onslaught. Faced with the "choice" of John McCain versus Hillary Clinton in 2008, both pro-war and avidly interventionist, where does the antiwar majority go?

The choice between Hoyer and Murtha was clear. While the loser is a hero to the antiwar movement, the victor was characterized by the Washington Monthly as follows:

"Hoyer has always advocated a more hawkish approach to national security than many Democrats. In 1985, he broke with his party to support funding for Reagan's MX missile, and in the 1990s pressured President Clinton to lift the arms embargo against Bosnian Muslims, and to intervene more aggressively in the Balkans. Unlike Pelosi, he voted to authorize Bush to invade Iraq. Then, last November, after Murtha – a longtime Pelosi ally who had run her whip campaign in 2000 – called for an immediate withdrawal, Hoyer and Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) urged Pelosi not to join Murtha, arguing that doing so would hurt Democrats politically."

I warned that this sellout would earn something of a record for swiftness, and I deeply regret being right. Believe me, nothing would be better if we could hand the job over to the newly installed Democratic Congress and relax as they extricate us from the Iraqi quagmire. Yet that clearly is not happening: instead, the Democrats, content with purely symbolic measures, are abstaining when it comes to Iraq, neither challenging the present policy of "stay the course" nor erecting any roadblocks to possible future escalation of the war.

Now we hear talk of a "final push," a sudden increase in the number of troops to leave some sort of semi-permanent imprint on the chaos. How many more have to die in order to save the face of the Washington know-it-alls?

This once again underlines the basic principle at the heart of any peace movement worthy of the name: put not your trust in politicians. The people voted to get us out of Iraq, and instead the Democrats will stand idly by – at best – while we get in deeper. They can concentrate on extending the welfare state and wait for the Baker Commission to somehow magically come up with a comfortably "bipartisan" solution. It isn't going to happen.

The sellout continues apace, and you can't say you weren't warned. Antiwar.com hasn't hesitated to say what isn't popular and speak truth to power, especially when it comes to the complicity of both parties in taking us down the road to war. We cannot rely on anything but a mass movement from below to end the war, and the mugging of Jack Murtha confirms it. That's why the continuity of Antiwar.com is so important – and why you should join with hundreds of others in ensuring that we are able to carry on our work.

The response to our fundraising effort this week has been frankly atrocious, and I don't think I'm amiss in thinking that this has much to do with the Democratic victory. Many of our readers and supporters apparently believed this would inaugurate a new era of peace, the neocons would be driven out of the temple of democracy, and the troops would come home shortly afterward. Now that they are beginning to realize this is nothing more than a pipe dream, they have a chance to redeem themselves.

We frankly cannot continue to operate Antiwar.com with the present level of contributions. Unless you, our readers and supporters, come through with a massive show of support, we'll be forced to make huge cutbacks: more than half the staff will have to go, and we'll be left with a skeleton budget and the looming possibility of imminent closure. It isn't a pretty picture.

The complete defeat of the antiwar Democrats at the hands of the War Party contains a lesson that needs to be absorbed, but surely it implies that bedrock institutions like Antiwar.com are essential to the cause of peace.

We don't have any illusions of a quick victory in the battle to change American foreign policy. We have been fighting the War Party since 1995, so we have no inflated expectations in that regard. It is a long, hard slog, and that's what this fundraising campaign has turned into: we're fighting the illusion that we can let the politicians take care of our problems all on their own, without any impetus or pressure from below.

Now, perhaps, that illusion has been shattered. The fate of Jack Murtha and the public pronouncements of Democratic party leaders bode ill for congressional action to end the war.

[Lothar]

The truth remains, the Dems have made any promise, told any lie, and spoken out of both sides of their mouths to get elected. The New Dealers and Great Society types will continue to have their way for a while because the Republicans proved to be no better.

Now we will see how long it takes the American people to figure out the Dems real agenda and forget how the Republicans were anything but the party of smaller, less intrusive government.

The Dems shifted into "promise breaking" mode as soon as the election was over. Now God help us all and protect your wallet. The onslaught will continue.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Lothar
The truth remains, the Dems have made any promise, told any lie, and spoken out of both sides of their mouths to get elected. The New Dealers and Great Society types will continue to have their way for a while because the Republicans proved to be no better.

Now we will see how long it takes the American people to figure out the Dems real agenda and forget how the Republicans were anything but the party of smaller, less intrusive government.

The Dems shifted into "promise breaking" mode as soon as the election was over. Now God help us all and protect your wallet. The onslaught will continue.

Yessir, all in just over a week. Everything happens faster because of computers, you know.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Yep fint, he didn't turn down the money when he ... um ... turned down the money ... in that bizarre and nasty universe you inhabit, I'm sure he took the $50k and spent it on hookers and coke.

Go slander someone else. Your work is done here.

You are such a liar...but that is nothing new:

MURTHA: I'm not interested.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: At this point.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: You know, we do business for a while, maybe I'll be interested, maybe I won't, you know.

[Rodeo]

Pat, the article you posted makes too many assumptions. Maybe they will turn out to be true, maybe not.

Americans voted for peace, and they're going to get more war. That's how our Bizarro democracy works, and all I can say is God bless Bizarro America, land of the duped and home of the cowed.

Murtha lost a leadership fight. One that he never really had a chance of wining, from what I can tell. Hoyer had the votes sewed up for a long time.

I don't think it's fair to cast it as a pro-war vote. It was a pro-Hoyer vote, not anti-Murtha. Remember, Murtha is chair of Defense Appropriations committee, he will have plenty of say on war policy. And remember the Speaker is committed to getting us out of the senseless admin war policy.

So let's give it a few weeks, huh? Maybe until they actually assume their leadership posts?

fint, you represent the worst of America. You and the rest of the haters can't go away fast enough.

[Nathans_Dad]

Only in CC land is Pelosi not WAAAAAYYYY liberal.

Hell, even her own party considers her to be on the liberal wing...just ask some of the centrist Democrats.

Does CC really not understand this or does she just pick things to fight about out of thin air?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by fintstone
You are such a liar...but that is nothing new:

MURTHA: I'm not interested.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: At this point.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: You know, we do business for a while, maybe I'll be interested, maybe I won't, you know.

Jack Murtha was fully and completely exonerated for the Abscam stuff long ago. It's the Democrat version of Swift Boating, demonstrating yet again, how much the two parties are alike.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by fastpat
Jack Murtha was fully and completely exonerated for the Abscam stuff long ago. It's the Democrat version of Swift Boating, demonstrating yet again, how much the two parties are alike.

I don't believe he was "cleared" of anything as he wasn't charged with anything. He was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator, just like Nixon.