New Toy

[Dan Alexander]

OK, but are you like everyone else? Maybe, I repeat maybe, normal responsible folks get that way but how many other not so normal people are out there?

Remember, we're all crazy, just in different degrees.

I find it hard to imaging that everyone just calms down when armed .. if so you'd all be sitting around holding hands and chanting

[Rick Lee]

No, I'm not like everyone else, but I have a lot more in common with other competent and trained concealed-carry folks than I do with the nuts who fear inanimate objects and think the police will save them from anything. And since I don't go looking for trouble to begin with, I feel relatively safe that when I carry, I will only draw to defend life or limb. I can't don't recall ever hearing a story where a licensed carrier used a gun for a crime. It may happen, but it's pretty rare. All the crazy predictions when VA was enacting their shall-issue law never came true. Not a single one.

[anotheroldrider]

An accurate prediction - according to the magazines, almost all confrontations ending in gunfire are within about 10 feet and last less than 10 seconds. If you're going to carry, that what you need to practice.

[Dan Alexander]

Originally posted by anotheroldrider

So what would happen if no one was carrying a gun?

Does the fact that both parties are armed escalate the situation to the life or death decision of who will be the first to draw? If you suspect the other is armed, don't you want to shoot first to be sure to save yourself?

[Dan Alexander]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
No, I'm not like everyone else, but I have a lot more in common with other competent and trained concealed-carry folks than I do with the nuts who fear inanimate objects and think the police will save them from anything.

OK, but isn't there a rather large middle ground that can be taken between carrying a gun and fearing inanimate objects. I'm 55 and can't think of a time when a gun would have saved me from anything. Probably would have gotten me into trouble actually. When I was a kid I belonged to a gun club where we shot targets with 22 rifles on an indoor range. Personally I've never considered the need to carry a gun on my person. I live in a place where you can walk around
and not be afraid of the next person on the sidewalk. I've travelled on the bike all over the US and besides one night in The French Quarter always felt safe.

Interesting discussion. I'm not judging right or wrong just curious about the mental attitude of carrying and where it may lead.

[phoenixtexoma]

Guys: First and foremost in this argument about the 2nd Amendment is that it was intended to be a bulwark against a tyrannical government using armed agents against citizens or invader. Not intended to preserve hunting or target shooting or whatever, but to blunt the government's monopoly on violence. Whether or not you ever have the need to use a weapon is irrelevant. An example is the statement of the Japanese admiral Yamamoto who said that anyone invading America would encounter a rifle behind every blade of grass.

[Dan Alexander]

The question then is 'Does having a rifle behind a blade of grass do more harm than good'?

It may keep the Japanese from invading and your government from armed dictatorship but otherwise?

In roadrage or domestic disputes it probably exascerbates the situation, no?

[Rick Lee]

Criminals will carry guns no matter what and cops can't be everywhere. That's why I carry. I hope it never happens, but if it does, dialing 911 would be useless.

[signit98]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Criminals will carry guns no matter what and cops can't be everywhere. That's why I carry. I hope it never happens, but if it does, dialing 911 would be useless.

...if it happens, chances are thet YOOU WILL NOT BE READY for it... quite often, well trained and experienced Cops get shot because they were not readyu for it...

I hate to be the one that bursts your bubble, but in most cases, criminals do not introduce themselves with ther anouncement that they are going to rob you at gunpoint, with complete disregard to the consequences...

...of course, if you are good enough to recognize EACH and EVERY potentially dangerous situation, this will NEVER happen to you...

...much like the squids wil never crash.

I hope for each and everyone of you, that said potentially dangerous sitiation will never occur... don't get me wrong here, I have handguns, I am trained on them and I don't mind them... I am just not dumb enough to think that they are, in fact, somewhat of a life insurance... just a hobby/sport to me...

[John Lyon]

Originally posted by Dan Alexander
I live in Canada and we don't carry guns around and our crime rate is lower than the US's ... so that argument doesn't go far.

Canada has a completely different demographic than the U.S. While most murders are between family members or people or know each other (when a gun is unfortunately handy), next comes the inner city gang type violence, which I don't believe Canada has much of. Not having guns around, however, would certainly help in the first case and gun owners should keep them locked away so they're not used in the heat of an argument, but too often that's what happens (little man complex).

Guns are part of the American culture, and this isn't going away, but sometimes I think we're no longer worthy of the rights given us by our founding fathers. I swear society as a whole is stupider than we were 2 hundred years ago, but at least we get to express our displeasure instead of having to live with the whims of a king and the rest of the slack-jawed nobility. America can still take credit for starting this worldwide trend (with France's help), but freedom has its price, and it keeps getting higher as we get dumber.

[JonyRR]

'crime rate is lower than the US's'

sez who? the gummint? there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Figures by ANY gummint (mine included, especially mine nowadays) are veerrryyy suspect.
My BC friends tend to be very distraught by thier soaring crime rate, and they can't blame ALL of it on 'trickleover' from us evil 'merikans.
I tend to also agree that the average american is pound-forpound, stupider than 50 years ago...now that the living is easier, there's less effort to just survive.

But again, the overarching reason for private firearms ownership is NOT JUST personal protection, but a check, by society as a whole, against unfettered abuse by out-of-control government.
Before firearms, it was edged weapons. peasants weren't allowed to be armed generally so not to challange the power and position of the nobility.
And even in canada, you are still technically a subject of the crown and not a citizen.
You can debate this endlessly, but I know where I stand and always have stood on this subject.
Besides, firearms are intricate mechanical objects just like motorcycles and many gearheads I know like firearms for their mechanical aspects.
In the 25th century, it'll be 'when blasters are outlawed, only outlaws will have blasters'
eastern martial arts were originally concieved because the peasants were forbidden to own weapons...man will ALWAYS figure out ways to defend himself....and those who don't will go bleating quietly into that bad night like the sheep they are...

[phoenixtexoma]

Just as a note of historical context. Yamamoto made the statement after years of living in the states, and marveled at the number of shooting clubs. He tried to convince his military peers to copy the clubs, but wasn't successful. In Tokyo in the late 1930s, Yamamoto said Japan didn't have enough divisions to take Texas, what about the rest of the country? A lifelong fan of the historical American west and especially the Texas Rangers, he had visited Texas to peruse the museums and talk to cowboys. Even visited some Comanche and Kiowa Indians. He said to even think about fighting people like them on their own soil was unthinkable. Yamamoto also had a spectacular collection of American firearms, his favorite a Colt Peacemaker made in 1878. In a sense, he was a Japanese version of Robert E. Lee.

JonyRR is right, a firearm can be a work of mechanical art. My M1991A1 has the slide acid engraved with my division and brigade patches, and my combat info, medals, unit, etc., on the right side. The slide is mirror polished, and the grips are highly textured American elk. Titanium trigger basically eliminates muzzle bounce and creep. To me, the Colt and my R1100S are cut from the same cloth.

[Chris Geuting]

Jony,as always a lot of hot air...
Like I said I have nothing against guns but I also don't worship them they are *****ing tools,nothing more...
Just don't give me that NRA propaganda that guns mak a safer or more polite society...
And scotland,U.K. or australia have more violent crime than the US...L.O.L.
And it is also a myth that Hitler took guns away from it's citizens;from commis and jews,yes but every kid got a long blade knife and later with 18 as an SA man a Luger 08...
Keep gobbling the propaganda,enjoy!
And I'm so glad that all those armed american patriots stood up against Bushler and his homeland security booltlickers when they were taking away the last few precious personal rights and freedoms left...Thank you!
Chris

[davidb2]

Chris, Jony is right. You are full of *****. I have noticed that your cradle to grave government (gov=taxpayer)hand out mentality is right in line with socialism. Have you considered moving to France?

[Chris Geuting]

France is great!Had a french girlfriend for 3 years.Great roads,nice beaches with warm water all that california promised but I could not master the lingo and the beer...;-)
Capitalism is when the majority gets screwed Socialism is the other way around,just look at sweden and norway that is according to the new UN list the best country to live in.Standart of living,health and such...B.t.w. the US came in on 8th place.Not too bad considering how bad things got lately...
At least we are No.1 spreading freedom and democracy in the world...;-)
Chris

[varmint]

Of course americans are more prone to violence, we're less likely to take crap than others.

And I'm tired of having europeans look down on us because we have more freedoms than they do. You have given up your right to self defense. We may not always be there to protect you.

And Hitler didn't didn't have a big gun control progam. The Weimar government had already confiscated all the personal weapons. The Nazis inherited a disarmed population. The liberals aren't fascists, they just make the fascist's job easier.

[jdlowery]

Moderator please toss this thread into Off Topic or Trash. Your choice.

[Chris Geuting]

Americans have more freedoms than europeans...L.O.L. Ever been to europe or just listening to Rush and O"Liely...
Let's see;no speed limit,legalization of soft drugs,universal healthcare,free education,bars that close at 5 am at open up at 6 am again...;-),no poperty tax.Tell me some freedoms we have and the europeans don't...We have more space but for sure no more freedoms.And the Weimar republik took the guns but Hitler gave them back to the people.One big lie of the NRA when they say everyone who is for gun control raise his/her right hand...
Like I said nothing wrong with guns but they for sure don't make for a safer society as the murder and suicide rate show we are very lonely on top of all industrialized nations when it comes to death caused by guns...
Of course in our health care system tht is so special and different from all other industrialized nations we are so lonely on the top that we have more uninsured than thw whole population of european countries with 40-50 million uninsured...Now you guys can argue that the lines of the insured in canada are too long and limbaugh and hannity told you our system is so crappy because of all the canadians who come down here because the lines are too long...L.O.L.
Propaganda like in the golden days of the U.S.S.R....;-)
Chris

[Dan Alexander]

doesn't take a lot to get things stirred up eh

[John Lyon]

"Propaganda like in the golden days of the U.S.S.R....;-)"

Not quite - Limbaugh and Hannity (and their liberal equivalents) don't work for the government.

As to Europe, we don't have government-owned airplane manufacturers competing in the free market. More patents issued here than anywhere in the world, not because we're smarter, but we have the spirit of working hard and being a relative meritocracy -- free to become what you want and are capable of. We haven't been dumbed down with things like 4+ weeks of vacation, restrictions on foreign companies entering our markets, etc. In other words, you get rewarded here for brain power and hard work more than anywhere in the world.