JC found dead

[IROC]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Your child comes in and asks you for a new Ferrari. He pleads with you every day for months and months for this Ferrari. He REALLY wants it. You say no. Do you exist?

The only difference is that I never promised that I would give my children anything they wanted - all they had to do is ask. The bible makes this promise. Maybe the authors of the bible should have chosen their words more carefully.

The point you guys are trying to make (and I understand) is that "god doesn't just give you whatever you want". The point of the amputee site is that god never gives you *anything* you ask for. Prayer does not work. Why is that? Why does the bible give people false hope in prayer when there is no fulfillment of this promise?

To me, the most logical conclusion is that god doesn't exist. That works fine for me as the results of prayer (not working) then make logical sense. But what about the millions of Christians who really believe in the power of prayer? Is it acceptable for them to hold this false hope that their prayers will be answered? Does it simply make them feel better to pray for a loved one's health for instance? Does it somehow place the fate of that loved one's condition into someone else's hands to make them feel better about it? Does it help them make sense of senseless things like cancer?

Honest questions. From my perspective, prayer is a powerful thing, but only in that it provides some measure of comfort to the prayer. It doesn't help the prayee at all.

[IROC]

Originally posted by jluetjen
The central premise of that site was that the Bible teaches that people will get what the pray for, and that is not in the Bible.

Actually, I think it's more complex than that. I think the central premise is that you *never* get what you want - contrary to what the bible states. Why is that? And...you can say that's not what the bible *teaches*, but it is what many (most?) Christians believe. Why is that?

I have read that entire site and I find that it poses some difficult questions for intellectually honest Christians. I would welcome a good refutation of some of the questions it asks.

[adrian jaye]

don't agree with you,

Do and have my prayers been answered, some of the time yes.

DO I know people in the same position yes.

God answers prayers in HIS time, not yours.

The power of prayer both singly and in a group is VERY powerful.
Personally I've come through some extremly tough times, and certain instances in my life the Lord (and his angels) have had my back, period.

I know this to be true, can I proove it to you or a non <><, no , of course I can't.

cos what ever explanation/scenario I give can probably be explained away, (as Z-man said to 99%), but the 1% is the faith, and thats the kicker.

Originally posted by IROC
The point you guys are trying to make (and I understand) is that "god doesn't just give you whatever you want". The point of the amputee site is that god never gives you *anything* you ask for. Prayer does not work. Why is that? Why does the bible give people false hope in prayer when there is no fulfillment of this promise?

To me, the most logical conclusion is that god doesn't exist. That works fine for me as the results of prayer (not working) then make logical sense. But what about the millions of Christians who really believe in the power of prayer? Is it acceptable for them to hold this false hope that their prayers will be answered? Does it simply make them feel better to pray for a loved one's health for instance? Does it somehow place the fate of that loved one's condition into someone else's hands to make them feel better about it? Does it help them make sense of senseless things like cancer?

Honest questions. From my perspective, prayer is a powerful thing, but only in that it provides some measure of comfort to the prayer. It doesn't help the prayee at all.

[IROC]

Originally posted by adrian jaye
I know this to be true, can I proove it to you or a non <><, no , of course I can't.

Of course you can't. That's the problem as I see it. No one has been able to prove it. Without any evidence that prayer actually works, people of a skeptical nature must accept that it simply doesn't work. Your assertions to the contrary carry no weight.

[adrian jaye]

Exqeeze me

try reading the bible............

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Originally posted by jluetjen
Who said that the answer is always going to be "yes"? The central premise of that site was that the Bible teaches that people will get what the pray for, and that is not in the Bible. It's kind of like the old Rolling Stones song, "You can't always get what you want... Sometimes you'll get what you need". And in some cases the answer to your prayer will be that your time is up, and it's time to rest from your efforts in our current existance.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I always found the notion of prayer to ask for things (either material things or immaterial things like peace, strength, etc.) to be kind of ridiculous. If one believes in the omnipotent power of a greater power, diety, god, etc. (like most bible-thumpers and other religious types do), and this universe exists solely due to that diety's influence(s) and according to his/her/its plan, wouldn't it be kind of offensive to say "hey, gee. God? Yea. It's me. You know that little thing you did with [whatever your petition is]? Well, you kind of f*cked it up. It really doesn't jive according to MY expectations and MY plan, so why don't you go back to your drafting board and. . . you know. . . kinda' rework that whole thing so it's better suited to me and what I want. Think you can do that? Good deal."

Prayer to ask for things is a way of directly questioning the legitimacy of the plan supposedly divinely created. I suppose prayer to be thankful is equally silly. If there's a divine master plan (I personally hate this concept because it smacks of pseudo-Calvanist determinism), they why SHOULD we be thankful? Our place, our role and our action and the outcome of those actions are all scripted and "according to the plan" then, right? So why should I be thankful? It's like so-and-so actor or actress saying, "gee mister Hollywood producer/script writer guy - I just wanted to let you know how thankful I am that the part I'm playing is so wonderful". If it's ultimately not going to change anything one way or the other (you're going to have the same role to play in "God's plan", then who cares? It just comes off as sort of drippy and sad/pathetic. It's a "sucking up" exercise.

I dunno. I just don't get it. What's the point of prayer? Unless one simply doesn't believe in the universal authority of a diety or cosmic force and that our lives are in accordance with "God's plan", there really isn't much point. If we DO in fact have direction, control and say-so over our own lives and the world/universe around us, then isn't prayer kind of a waste of time? Seems to me the time/effort/energy expended would be better spent on actually trying to influence and create the world around us we want for ourselves, rather than sucking up to a diety that might or might not provide it, according to his/her/its whims.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by stuartj
Mmm. Trouble is....to wade into a thread like this with the simple and simplistic assertion that "God is behind the wheel" pretty much underlines the point many are making here.

Moreover, in what has been a very even and reasoned discussion on a topic that often boils over, it could be contsrued as attempt to throw a little hand grenade. Trolling, I think its called.

You think that is trolling? From the one who has a signature that is Ablett Akhbar and calls God "your invisible friend"? Come on.

You think my point of view is simplistic, perhaps you are right. Why do things have to be complicated? And not only that, what is simplistic about the idea that there is a higher power in the universe that has an ultimate plan for your life? That's actually a pretty deep and complicated thought if you really think about it.

The bottom line is that you are entrenched in your position just like I am entrenched in mine. Rehashing the same tired arguments that people have been having for thousands of years without conclusion really does nothing except waste keystrokes. It is obvious that I am not going to convince you that there is a God, just as you are not going to convince me that there is not one. Neither side can prove their point, so the argument is pointless.

[Nathans_Dad]

P-o-P, prayer is simply talking to God. Sometimes when you talk to God you thank him for what he has done in your life, sometimes you talk about your fears or hopes, sometimes you just talk. It's cathartic.

Yes, there are some passages in the Bible that say that if you pray for something, God will give it to you. However, taking those passages as a singular truth without taking into context the rest of the Bible is pretty dangerous. There are multiple other passages that talk about how we should submit to the will of God and allow that to guide our lives. The idea is that if you are truly communing with God and listening to his direction, your prayers will bring you what God's ultimate plan is.

Do some people pray for money or fame or power? Sure. I would doubt, though, that their prayer is in accordance with God's plan for their lives.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by kang
OK, I’ve heard this “faith” thing before. There is no hard evidence, so you believe because of faith. Since there is no evidence, there is no logical reason to believe. You believe based on faith. You believe because you want to believe. Since there is no logical reason to believe, it would seem that we can conclude that it is illogical to believe. Believing something on faith alone seems very, very illogical to me.

Ok, so believing in something you don't see is illogical. And you won't adhere to that type of thinking.

Hmmm - the air we breathe is invisible. You cannot see air. Granted, we do have tools which can measure Oxygen levels in the air, and we have an idea of how atoms are joined together, but all this atom thing is speculation -- no one has seen an atom in person. Therefore, it must be illogical to breathe for you, so kindly stop breathing!

What I'm trying to say is this: my belief requires faith, but faith goes beyond religion. We all believe in things we do not see and often cannot explain. No matter how you believe the world came to be, it requires faith in some theory, whether the theory is based on a God creating the universe, or an evolutionary process.

-Z

[thrown_hammer]

Faith is like theory.

[Taz's Master]

Kang, dark matter is nothing but a fudge factor to make the math work out. Either that or it exists. Do you believe?

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
Hmmm - the air we breathe is invisible. You cannot see air. Granted, we do have tools which can measure Oxygen levels in the air, and we have an idea of how atoms are joined together, but all this atom thing is speculation -- no one has seen an atom in person. Therefore, it must be illogical to breathe for you, so kindly stop breathing!

The point is that there is physical, measurable evidence that air exists. There is no physical, measurable evidence that god exists. It would be illogical to believe that something exists for which there is no physical evidence. Unicorns, for example. Alot has been written throughout history about unicorns, but there is no physical evidence that they actually exist (or existed). I, myself, have come to the conclusion that unicorns probably do not exist. Can I prove that? No.

Lots of people have "faith" in things, but that doesn't make it true. Can I prove them wrong? No. Can I prove that Scientology is wrong? No. Does that make it true? No.

[nyne11]

Anyone seen an older movie called "The Body" with Antonio Bandaras along the same line......good movie!

[MRM]

Originally posted by IROC
The point is that there is physical, measurable evidence that air exists. There is no physical, measurable evidence that god exists. It would be illogical to believe that something exists for which there is no physical evidence. Unicorns, for example. Alot has been written throughout history about unicorns, but there is no physical evidence that they actually exist (or existed). I, myself, have come to the conclusion that unicorns probably do not exist. Can I prove that? No.

Lots of people have "faith" in things, but that doesn't make it true. Can I prove them wrong? No. Can I prove that Scientology is wrong? No. Does that make it true? No.

Your analysis is correct as far as it goes, but I respectully submit that you are missing something and that you rely more on faith than you realize, even as you demand physical evidence on which to form your beliefs.

As I discussed a few pages back, the only thing that humans can prove is that we exist. This truth is self evident because we have to exist in order to form the question of whether we do exist and to be curious about the world around us. Anything beyond that requires us to rely on our perception of reality, which may be faulty.

We can't prove that we are not in The Matrix where all of our perceptions are controled by computers. It is unlikely this is true, and we are able to form opinions and make judgments based on our perceptions, but it requires a leap of faith to even rely on those perceptions.

So the best that is available under the human condition is to observe what we perceive around us and make deductions from those perceptions to arrive at our final judgment on all of the issues that are presented to us.

Some people deduce the existance of the physical world around them and stop there because they do not perceive evidence of anything beyond what we know of this physical world. Others divine the existance of a higher being from the same set of data. Neither can be proven to the satisfaction of the unconvinced.

I personally think I can deduce the existance of a Christian God from my perceptions of the world around me. My theory is that God put us here in part to give us the chance to figure it out. Perhaps we are in a pupa stage now and we have to go through death to metamophasize into whatever we turn into for eternity, and what we are next is based on what we believed and how we judged ourselves and others here in this world.

I believe it because it makes sense to me. Others think I'm a screeming looney, although I rarely screem (in public) and I don't usually explain my philosophy in detail, so most people base their judgment of me on my Porsche obsession. They may be right, but I also believe that doubt is a necessary element of faith, and that God wants us to question and have doubt because the more we wrestle with the question and still come up with the right answer the more valuable our decision is.

By the way, my Christian tradition is Methodist on both sides of my family. Other than being cold water temperance folk, its a pretty well adjusted religion. You might want to look into Methodism if you are troubled with many of the excesses attributed generically to "The Church" and wonder how thinking people could seriously join an organized religion and be believers. I've had a fair amount of experience with some Southern Baptist congregations and Catholic Churches. All I have seen are excellent; as the Good Book says, My Father's house has many rooms. Some are filled with doubters who still believe.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by IROC
The point is that there is physical, measurable evidence that air exists. There is no physical, measurable evidence that god exists. It would be illogical to believe that something exists for which there is no physical evidence.

For me, there is spiritual evidence that God exists. Now just because spiritual evidence isn't necessarily physical evidence, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It is hard for me to understand the point of view that there is nothing beyond the physical realm in this universe. There are way too many 'holes' and unexplained phenomenon that leads me to believe (there's that faith thing again), that there is definately someone more out there.

And along those same lines:

From two separate posts Originally posted by kang
Likewise. Have you taken a close and honest look at my list of needs? Which do you meet via religion?
....
The list is not complete, and every individual has their own set, with their own priorities. In no particular order:

1) Something to explain the unexplainable
2) The need to know that death is not the end
3) Something to absolve guilt, e.g. forgiveness from your “sins”
4) The need to belong to a group
5) The need to feel superior to others
6) The need for unconditional love
7) An absolute authority for morals
8) Direction on how to live your life
9) A need to be right

The short answer for me is "none of the above." The answer is that in my seeking to find the meaning to life, the universe, and everything, I have come to the conclusion that God was behind all this. I believe in God because I have concluded that He is the truth behind our existence.

As such, because I believe in God,
1. He has kept certain unexplainable things from mankind. And I look forward to findnig out some of these things when I can talk with Him in heaven. (My first question will be if He was joking with me all the times the street lights would flicker out when I drove/walked/rode underneath them...)
2. I know that death is not the end of my existence.
3. The only reason I am grateful that my sins are forgiven is because that forgiveness will allow me to commune with God.
4. I am a part of many groups - my church group, my friends at work, my Porsche club friends - so I don't have to be a Christian to be part of a group.
5. I certainly do not feel superior to others.
6. Because of God's unconditional love, I strive to love Him to the best of my ability. He loved me first, not the other way around. And to be loved is a need that all man has.
7. There are no absolutes. As far as morals are concerned, again, because of what He did for me, I try my best to do what He asks of me. (I think that's a different way of looking at the whole morality issue).
8. God does give me direction in my life, but again, it is because I believe in Him that He gives me direction, not the other way around.
9. "A need to be right." Well, the Bible very clearly tells me that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The Bible also clearly states that Christians are NOT perfect - that they sin and make mistakes every day of their lives. Thus, if I chose my faith because I have a need to be right, I have chosen the wrong faith, given that my faith shows me that I am very, very far from being 'right.' . (The key is that my sins are forgiven through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.)

Hope that sheds some light on why I believe what I believe.

And again, sorry for the long post,
-Zoltan.

[IROC]

Originally posted by MRM
So the best that is available under the human condition is to observe what we perceive around us and make deductions from those perceptions to arrive at our final judgment on all of the issues that are presented to us.

Some people deduce the existance of the physical world around them and stop there because they do not perceive evidence of anything beyond what we know of this physical world. Others divine the existance of a higher being from the same set of data. Neither can be proven to the satisfaction of the unconvinced.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. For better or for worse, I seem to be unable to perceive "evidence of anything beyond what we know of this physical world". I just can't. The emperor has no clothes when I look at him. I've *have* put alot of thought into it, because alot of other people seem to be able to do this, but in the end I have found that it simply does not work for me. I have trouble believing in ghosts, UFOs, psychics, etc., for the same reason.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
It is hard for me to understand the point of view that there is nothing beyond the physical realm in this universe. There are way too many 'holes' and unexplained phenomenon that leads me to believe (there's that faith thing again), that there is definately someone more out there.

I can appreciate this, but my point of view is simply that just because we don't fully understand something (gravity, for instance) that doesn't mean that there might be a supernatural explanation for it. Throughout history there are tons of examples of man not understanding something and attributing it to god (or gods) only to find as we got smarter that it was actually some natural phenomenon.

[Nathans_Dad]

Does it not take faith to believe that science will eventually be able to explain that which we cannot understand? I think it does.

Science has come up with all sorts of strange and wonderful theories to explain how things work, string theory comes to mind. I would submit it takes just as much faith to believe that string theory is actually real as it does to believe in God.

This is a little bit off topic, but I have never been able to get my mind around the idea that the universe is infinite yet expanding. How can something without an end be getting larger? What is it expanding into? What potential space lies outside of the universe that we have yet to discover or understand?

It reminds me of the old "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?" argument. The answer is that God can always make a bigger rock and God can always lift that rock because God has infinite yet expanding power. Sorta like the universe.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Does it not take faith to believe that science will eventually be able to explain that which we cannot understand? I think it does.

Worded the way you have it above, yes - I think it would take "faith" to assume that science would eventually, but surely, explain something that is currently unknown. It might not. We may never figure it out. The way I see it, though, when faced with something we don't understand, we have two options (maybe more, but for the sake of this discussion only two):

1. Use the scientific method to try and understand that which we do not know in the context of physical laws and processes that we understand and arrive at a hypothesis that explains the phenomenon. This is what scientists do every day and we have made alot of progress using this method.

2. Assume that it is too complex for us to understand and hence there must be a supernatural explanation (the explanation for the diversity of life on this planet comes to mind).

Since there has never been a case of number 2 ending up being correct, I think it is better for us to concentrate on number 1.

Maybe I am not characterizing #2 very well, but maybe you see my point.

[kang]

[

Originally posted by jluetjen
Who said that the answer is always going to be "yes"? The central premise of that site was that the Bible teaches that people will get what the pray for, and that is not in the Bible. It's kind of like the old Rolling Stones song, "You can't always get what you want... Sometimes you'll get what you need". And in some cases the answer to your prayer will be that your time is up, and it's time to rest from your efforts in our current existance.

No one said that the answer will always be yes. The point is, sometimes the answer is yes for people with cancer, but that it is NEVER yes for amputees.

Originally posted by adrian jaye
don't agree with you,

Do and have my prayers been answered, some of the time yes.

DO I know people in the same position yes.

God answers prayers in HIS time, not yours.

The power of prayer both singly and in a group is VERY powerful.
Personally I've come through some extremly tough times, and certain instances in my life the Lord (and his angels) have had my back, period.

I know this to be true, can I proove it to you or a non <><, no , of course I can't.

cos what ever explanation/scenario I give can probably be explained away, (as Z-man said to 99%), but the 1% is the faith, and thats the kicker.

See, some of the time the answer is yes. Adrian, like most Christians, believe this. Like I said, no one says the answer will always be yes, no does anyone say that the answers will come in our time or in our way. But again, the answer to amputees is always no. Why is this? What does god have against amputees?

10 million people might pray to win the lottery. Only one lucky guy actually wins. He will say “god helped me win” or “god has plans for me and wants me to have this money” or “god works in mysterious ways” while the other 9,999,999 people just think that god said no or that god doesn’t help you with stuff like winning the lottery.