JC found dead

[Z-man]

Originally posted by kang
Can someone confirm what nota said above? That there are no first person accounts of the resurrection? I always thought that those books were written in the first person. Yes, I read the bible, a long, long time ago, but I don’t remember these details.

Depends on what nota is trying to say (it is very difficult to follow his posts due to his writing "style." ) Was there someone beside Christ when the actual resurrection occurred? There is nothing in the Bible that would support that claim. Where there people who saw Him before He died, as well as after He came back from the dead.

Oh, and I find it funny how you accept fossils are evidence for evolution, yet an empty tomb is unacceptable. Fossils may prove different species exsisted on this earth and are now extinct, but it does not prove evolution. And many times, lots of this fossil evidence was later disproved. I believe it was a skull fragment of "chro-magnum" man that was later proven to be the jawbone of a pig. Like I said before - when you dig in dirt, especially old dirt, things don't always line up as neatly as the scientists claim they do...

-Z-man.

Side note: I appreicate this debate and am glad that we can discuss such things here without resorting to name calling and bashing. Thanks.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
I suppose then, that you have a difficult time accepting evolution as the way we came to be. After all, there are no eyewitness accounts for the first time muddy-mudskipper decided to get out of the goop and take a walk around the neighborhood.

Evolution occurs every day in the laboratory. That's proof enough for me.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by IROC
Evolution occurs every day in the laboratory. That's proof enough for me.

Miracles happen every day in real life. That's proof enough for me!

Some examples of miracles: child birth, balance in nature, how our bodies can heal themselves...etc. Yes, each of my miracles can be explained to 99% scientifically, but that remaining 1% is where the miracle part happens.

-Z

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
Oh, and I find it funny how you accept fossils are evidence for evolution, yet an empty tomb is unacceptable.

As has been said often - evolution is both theory and fact. The fact is that evolution has occurred. The theory of evolution is our scientific method of explaining the "fact" of evolution. Evolution is based on much more than fossils, also. The evidence is so overwhelming that even terminally skeptical people like scientists accept it as valid. :>)

An empty tomb proves nothing except that the tomb was empty. If Christianity was supported by evidence anywhere near the level of the theory of evolution, I would be all over it like a cheap suit.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
Miracles happen every day in real life. That's proof enough for me!

Some examples of miracles: child birth, balance in nature, how our bodies can heal themselves...etc. Yes, each of my miracles can be explained to 99% scientifically, but that remaining 1% is where the miracle part happens.

-Z

But why do no miracles occur these days that simply can't be explained by science? They used to occur, right? But they don't now. Why is that? Why does god hate amputees?

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by kang

Can someone confirm what nota said above? That there are no first person accounts of the resurrection? I always thought that those books were written in the first person. Yes, I read the bible, a long, long time ago, but I don’t remember these details.

If you're asking if anyone saw Jesus roll out of the crypt and stretch his arms? No.

If you're asking if anyone else saw Jesus alive after the resurrection -- yes, they are mentioned:

1) John reports when Jesus visited the him and 9 other disciples in a closed room.
2) Jesus repeated this visit with (doubting) Thomas present (for a total of 11 disciples) a week later.
3) He appeared to both Marys (Magdalane, and the mother of Jesus), but in those days (as is often the case in the mid-east today) women were not considered to be reliable witnesses. Either way, it's not known if the Marys were literate or not.

It's pretty clear that when he was seen after the resurrection, it was not like he was just any Joe of the street. For example he appeared in a locked room twice, without using the door. But on another occasion, he had dinner and ate food with some of the disciples who were fishing. So he was reported to be both human (he ate) and spiritual (doing the casper thing). Not your normal human being.

This leads me to where the followers of Jesus are not like the followers of any other religion (that I'm aware of).

- Mohammad was the pre-eminant member of his faith when he died of old age, and within their environment the Muslims were the predominant group politically and militarily. He started a group and it was going strong when he passed away. This story is essential the same as countless other cultures through-out history, including William the Conquerer, the Kims of North Korea, Mao and Lenin. Start small, grow big, appoint successors.

- David Corresh lead a smallish group of followers and died when they died. No one has heard of them again, nor of the Branch Davidean faith. So it certainly appears to have died with him. Nothing unusual there. Start small, end small.

- Jesus was executed before the group got off the ground. The "group" of followers was a core of 12 of decidely middle-class individuals, and a wider group of mostly faceless individuals. None of the core group were particularly noteworthy or rich. Individually and as a group they were powerless to save their leader from execution, in fact one of them even turned him in. After the execution they ran off and hid. At no time were they ever the predominant group politically in their environment, nor did they ever have any military might. Does this sound like the beginning of a movement to take over the world.

But something invigorated the remaining members to VERY suddenly rise up and start to convert large numbers of people to their beliefs. This was done locally (in the same city where Jesus was killed), and internationally. Haven't you ever wondered what happened???? The group started small, gets decapitated, and grows to be the largest single social grouping on the planet.

I'd like to see Dawkins pull that off!

[Z-man]

Originally posted by IROC
As has been said often - evolution is both theory and fact. The fact is that evolution has occurred. The theory of evolution is our scientific method of explaining the "fact" of evolution. Evolution is based on much more than fossils, also. The evidence is so overwhelming that even terminally skeptical people like scientists accept it as valid. :>)

An empty tomb proves nothing except that the tomb was empty. If Christianity was supported by evidence anywhere near the level of the theory of evolution, I would be all over it like a cheap suit.

The key to understanding Christianity can be boiled down to one word: faith. If there were "hard evidence" as you require, there would be no need to have faith in Christ. So it is a paradox to seek evidence for something that requires faith.

That said, there are plenty of facts in Christianity that can be substantiated, such as:
1. Jesus Christ exsisted and lived in Palestine some 2000 years ago.
2. He was the son of a Jewish carpenter, and His ancestry can be traced back to King David.
3. This Jesus Christ was crucified by the Romans after the Sanhedrin accused Him of proclaiming to be God.
4. His life was chronicled in great detail by His followers.
5. He was a teacher of twelve men. From those twelve men rose a world-wide belief system called Christianity.

Note the abscence of any "spiritual realm" items in my list of facts.

One more thought:
You state that evolution has been proven in the laboratory. I have also heard that evolution of man cannot be shown since it would take 1,000,000 + years to see any evolutinoary effect. Well in that case, can science attempt to make a fish get up and walk on land? It's a simple organism, and with all the advanced in scientific technology, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the little fishey to grow legs and walk...

-Z-man.

[kang]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Let's see how Dawkins stacks up...

1) Given that Dawkins hasn't been able to explain why we are here, yup -- he passes this test of a religion.
2) I assume that Dawkings believes that death is the end.
3) Listening to Dawkins, I doubt that he believes that he has any guilt, nor has ever done anything the would require forgiveness.
4) The group is called Athiests
5) Dawkins has this in SPADES!!!!
6) I don't know if Dawkins knows what love is since it can not be seen, touched or proven in any physical fashion.
7) Obviously Dawkins is THE MAN when it comes to moral authority.
8) Dawkins has also demonstrated this repeatedl
9) Aww come on, is there any question that Dawkins feels the need to be right.



Yup, Dawkins is preaching a religion! It's the religion of Dawkins where's he's going to save the world.

(But by the way, he's not even big enough or gracious enough acknowledge a good person when he see one.)

I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make except maybe that atheism is a religion.

That Dawkins has some of these needs is not new information. We all have them. Like I said, I have some myself. I know how I get them met. It’s just not via religion.

Which ones do you have, to what degree, and how do you get them met?

By the way, I found one definition of religion:

“Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.”

Atheism hardly qualifies.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by IROC
But why do no miracles occur these days that simply can't be explained by science? They used to occur, right? But they don't now. Why is that? Why does god hate amputees?

God Doesn't hate amputees. Bad things happen, often due to peoples decisions, sometimes due to natural events. God never promised to make people live forever, or that would people would be free from suffering. Everyone dies, it's just a question of when.

After a priest asked Jesus what a crippled man had done to deserve such a fate, Jesus replied that everyone was valued by God. We all have infirmeries and shortcomings of some sort, which provides an opportunity for people to demonstrate their love for one another by caring for and supporting one another. At the end of the day, it is these actions that seem to provide meaning to life.

People have good lives and bad lives. The fact that there are people whom are suffereing does not reflect in any way God's view of them. In many cases the suffering was created by other people. Being an amputee is not the end of a person's life. There are many amputees who have recovered to be wonderful influences on other people, and there are many amputees who's lives have been uplifted by the help and support of others.

That's as good of an explanation of why "***** happens" as any that I've heard.

[IROC]

Originally posted by Z-man
One more thought:
You state that evolution has been proven in the laboratory. I have also heard that evolution of man cannot be shown since it would take 1,000,000 + years to see any evolutinoary effect. Well in that case, can science attempt to make a fish get up and walk on land? It's a simple organism, and with all the advanced in scientific technology, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the little fishey to grow legs and walk...

Your understanding of evolution is extremely lacking, but that is a subject for another thread.

Also, assuming that the 5 facts you mention are fully, verifiably true, that does nothing to prove that god exists. I'm sure that was not your point, though. Anyone can start a religion. Even a science fiction writer like L Ron Hubbard. Do you believe all of the tenets of Scientology? That aliens have visited Earth before, etc.? You can't *prove* that they didn't, so I'm assuming that you are "agnostic" when it comes to Scientology? Using your logic (and I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth), you must admit that it is possible that Scientology is true because you cannot prove that it's claims are not valid - even though most rational people think they are silly. Or insert any other religion in the place of Scientology. Mormonism? Do you believe the stories that Joseph Smith Jr told?

If you reject Scientology or the stories that Joseph Smith Jr told, you might have some insight into why I reject Christianity.

[IROC]

Originally posted by jluetjen
God Doesn't hate amputees.

I only bring this up as an example of the failure of prayer. It seemed somewhat appropriate...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[kang]

Originally posted by Z-man
Miracles happen every day in real life. That's proof enough for me!

Some examples of miracles: child birth, balance in nature, how our bodies can heal themselves...etc. Yes, each of my miracles can be explained to 99% scientifically, but that remaining 1% is where the miracle part happens.

-Z

Well, we don’t understand anything 100%, so by your logic, everything is a miracle. Gravity. Water. Internal combustion engines.

Originally posted by Z-man
Side note: I appreicate this debate and am glad that we can discuss such things here without resorting to name calling and bashing. Thanks.

Likewise. Have you taken a close and honest look at my list of needs? Which do you meet via religion?

[kang]

Originally posted by IROC
I only bring this up as an example of the failure of prayer. It seemed somewhat appropriate...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

That is an excellent link. Much more info than the URL implies. If you are a Christian, please take a look.

Edit: Here is a short, video version:

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

[stuartj]

Originally posted by jluetjen
[B]Actually that was your answer -- not mine. First you keep ignoring the fact that a "hostile (non-Christian)" observer has acknowledged the existance and death of Jesus of Nazereth. You're welcome to ignore the flowery language which appears to be added after the fact, but you're still left with the fact the specifically ties Jesus "Known as the Christ" with the Christian believers in Rome at that time.

Aside from that, my point was that there are an awful lot of people from the 1st century who acted consistantly with what is reported in the Bible. At the time of Eusebius there was a statue in Palestine recording the healing of the women from Ceasorea who had been aflicted with bleeding. It was there for all to dismiss, especially since even at that time Christians were not the predominant religion. But yet ow one appeared to dispute the events shown in the statue.

In addition, congregations of Christians quickly appeared in Asia minor, Egypt, Greece and Rome as a result of the efforts of the disciples -- formally fishermen and tax collectors. Something fired these people up in spite of the organization being decapitated when Jesus was executed. Further crucifixions and persecution (even of the next level of leaders -- specifically the disciples -- most of whom were executed) did not stop the movement.


The same is true of your local library.

For the record, in case you have nmisunderstood me, I do not deny Jesus Christ existed, and never have. I have the same level of confidence that JC existed as I do any other historical figure.

Neither do I doubt the spread of Christianity in the manner you describe. After that, I not sure ewhat your point is.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by IROC
I only bring this up as an example of the failure of prayer. It seemed somewhat appropriate...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

The very premise that that web site is testing for is not even anything which is taught by Christianity.

1) Man was created for God, not vice versa. As a result...
2) God does not come at our beck and call. Nothing in the Bible says that this is the case.
3) God never promised that we'd live for ever. We all die of something -- cancer, gun shot, old age, land slides, etc. Chose your scene ender!
4) God does ask that you pray to him. Jesus specifically taught the following as an excellent example

a) Our Father (you're addressing the creator).
b) Who art in heaven (he's where we can't see him, but acknowledge his existance.)
c) Holy is your name (let's be straight about who's the boss)
d) Your kingdom come (please let this sorry existance pass so that we can get to the better place.)
e) Your will be done (not my will, God but your will)
f) ...on earth as it is in heaven (I think that this is self explanitory)
g) Give us this day our daily bread (taking into account the earlier clauses, please provide for me)
h) ... and forgive us our sins so that we can forgive others (I guess if God can forgive little ol' me, I guess I can forgive Nota's spelling, grammer, bad attitide and such. It really is pretty trivial compared to some of the stuff that I've done which have hurt others)
i) Please don't allow me to be tempted by anything that I can't handle... (Help me!)
j) and deliver us from evil (or the evil one in some translations) (please watch over me and protect me -- it doesn't hurt to ask! This could also be understood as meaning please protect me from assuming the pompous, self centered attitude of R. Dawkins.)

There's nothing there about God giving me a parking space close to the mall just because I asked. Nor is there anything about responding to my wish list.

[IROC]

Originally posted by jluetjen
There's nothing there about God giving me a parking space close to the mall just because I asked. Nor is there anything about responding to my wish list.

While I think I essentially agree with what you are saying, they are many people who feel that god listens to and answers their prayers (after all, the bible says that he will). There is no evidence that this occurs. The most logical reason why this does not occur is that there is no god. Either that or the bible is incorrect in that respect (that prayers will be answered).

[kang]

Originally posted by jluetjen
The very premise that that web site is testing for is not even anything which is taught be Christianity.

I think that that web site addresses beliefs as much as it is addresses what is taught by Christianity.

The fundamental question they ask is this:

You believe god answers prayers sometimes, correct? And sometimes those prayers are to heal someone with cancer, correct? And sometimes, that person gets healed?

I think that most Christians believe that god, on occasion, will heal someone with cancer.

How come god NEVER heals an amputee?

And don’t come up with an excuse, like the video portrays, and like you have with points 1-4 and a-j.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Z-man
The key to understanding Christianity can be boiled down to one word: faith. If there were "hard evidence" as you require, there would be no need to have faith in Christ. So it is a paradox to seek evidence for something that requires faith.

That said, there are plenty of facts in Christianity that can be substantiated, such as:
1. Jesus Christ exsisted and lived in Palestine some 2000 years ago.
2. He was the son of a Jewish carpenter, and His ancestry can be traced back to King David.
3. This Jesus Christ was crucified by the Romans after the Sanhedrin accused Him of proclaiming to be God.
4. His life was chronicled in great detail by His followers.
5. He was a teacher of twelve men. From those twelve men rose a world-wide belief system called Christianity.

Note the abscence of any "spiritual realm" items in my list of facts.

One more thought:
You state that evolution has been proven in the laboratory. I have also heard that evolution of man cannot be shown since it would take 1,000,000 + years to see any evolutinoary effect. Well in that case, can science attempt to make a fish get up and walk on land? It's a simple organism, and with all the advanced in scientific technology, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the little fishey to grow legs and walk...

-Z-man.

I have no issue with your list of facts, on the face of it. And I agree with you absolutely that is boils down to "faith". As has been demostrated in this thread, it cannot be supported that JC rose from the dead- except on the basis of faith. I accept that you and others believe that JC rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

Faith is the ability to beleive that for which there is no material support. Some people cannot intellectually make this leap. I suppose thats why its called the Leap of Faith.

Problems arise for the rational community when the faith based community make staments like the ones you have made here about evolution. And when these views, spun and polished, permeate public policy, we get very agitated.

This will be the great clash of cultures. Not between flavours of religous fundamentalisms, but between the faith based and rational.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by IROC
While I think I essentially agree with what you are saying, they are many people who feel that god listens to and answers their prayers (after all, the bible says that he will). There is no evidence that this occurs. The most logical reason why this does not occur is that there is no god. Either that or the bible is incorrect in that respect (that prayers will be answered).

Or that God has, or will answer the prayer in a fashion that's different from what the person is expecting. None of which will satisfy a hard-core, physical existance type person like Dawson.

Have you ever read the book of Job?

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by kang

How come god NEVER heals an amputee?

And don’t come up with an excuse, like the video portrays, and like you have with points 1-4 and a-j.

Why should he?

Besides, if you're not willing to consider my answers, why should I bother??? My responses weren't excuses. That web site is beating up on a straw-man. The points that it's trying refute are never put forth as being parts of Christianity.