Born Losers

[Zeke]

Microsoft. Not necessarily Bill Gates. No doubt a very intelligent man, but others had a little something to do with it. I think Gates is more than a little motivated by money as an end product. And what about this guy Zell? Or Buffet? I mean money IS their product. It's hard to differentiate between their accomplishments and their capital build up. Lastly, I wouldn't necessarily call Buffet an innovator. Can't say about Zell, but apparently he has had some visions.

[Jims5543]

I am not driven by accompishments. I am a capitalist and I am not ashamed of it.

My father got up and left the house every morning at 5 and did not return until 7. When my parents were trying to scrape some money together for a downpayment on their first house I was about 10 years old. I remember my dad coming home from work and then him and my mom (with me and my little brother in tow) would go out and clean banks and office buildings. All for a downpayment on a 25K house in 1975.

I was on the same path when I was 25 years old although I was lucky to be able to save up and buy my first house in 1988 for 45K at the age of 22. I worked my butt off and my $460 a month mortgage was steep for me making $8 an hour.

I was paycheck to paycheck just like my dad. I left at 5:30 in the morning for work, and did not return until 6 pm.

So I was in the same exact rutt. When my 1st kid was 2 years old I decided enough was enough, I took a job at a rather large corporation when I was 29 years old. My yearly salary doubled to 40K a year.

Now 10 years later I am in the six figure range, self employed and providing jobs to 5 people right now. (used to be 15 people)

My goal is to make good money and free myself up to be with my family as much as possible. I see my kids almost every morning before work, and I am home by 5-5:30 every evening. I spend my weekends with my wife and kids and we travel and do everything together.

Now that I have some money in the bank, I can say that Money = luck.

If you have 20K in your checking account and the tranny blows on your car, no big deal you fix it.
If you have $20 in your checking account its a huge deal that will screw you up for months.

I will never take for granted what I have, sometimes I laugh inside when I have to pay to get something fixed because I can remember a time when it would be a devestating blow.

My accomplishments? All I care about is being a good dad to my kids and raising them to be good people, being a good husband to my wife and spending the rest of my life with her enjoying each others company.

Everything else is trivial.

[daepp]

Originally posted by JCF
It isn't your responsibility to fix it. Or mine.
Nor is it any positive reflection on you or any country based on the ideals of "us vs them" - or to simply dismiss all unfortunate folk as losers and hurray for me and f them .
It seems to me we are all in this together and I for one don't mind that my taxes would go to helping, say those wounded vets or those people suffering from a natural disaster , or someone who needs health care.
Our responsibility should be to try to help where we can.
We don't need to get rid of government but to try and make it work better for all of us.

I think we should all want to help those you mention (the wounded vet or the disaster victim) - in fact, I personally believe it is my Christian duty to do so. I do not, however, think that it's the government's job to do so with my taxes.

And you have not addressed the most common welfare recipient. And how do you like your taxes going to support able-bodied men who are participating in destructive behavior?

[daepp]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Could you delineate those taxes?

35% Fed
11% State (CA)
6.2% FICA
1.45% MED
7.75% CA State Sales Tax
$6K+/Year property taxes

And now AMT, but I'm not smart enough to express that as a percent.

The sad thing is, there's probably much more that I haven't even thought of. It really saps your desire to grow your business and hire more employees.

[daepp]

stevepaa Have you ever had an employee? Have you ever had the responsibility of someone else's livelihood (sp?)?

[cantdrv55]

Originally posted by stevepaa
No, my first job was a teacher. I could not affrod to have a family on that income so I went back and got a MS in engineering to pursue my other passion in aerospace. Money was an afterthought.

There are plenty of teachers who have families and are doing just fine. You wanted to make more money for the nicer things in life.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
How can I get all the time I wasted on this thread back?

Haven't you been paying attention? Become a pirate!

Let's all become pirates!!! Arrrrrrrrrrr arrrrrrrrrr!!!

Where's my big hat and sword?
But I'm not doing the parrot thing... they crap all over... disgusting creatures.

[911boost]

Jim hit the nail on the head. I have been with the same company since 1997, when I started making 8 bucks an hour. I worked my ass off, did stuff no one else wanted too, and have been successful, and currently make a tad bit more than 8 bucks an hour.

The key is I worked my ass off. I didn't have any inside tracks, or know anyone, I took a job with a College Education that you only needed a high school education to get, and put in my time.

Am I ashamed of the money I make, hell no. I pay my taxes, every year, a pretty damn good amount too, do I complain, nope. Do I want to pay more because someone else is too lazy to work and bust their ass like I did, hell no.

With regards to Bill Gates, some of you shouldn't be so jealous. He is living the dream. Doesn't he own a 959? Yeah, thats what I thought.

Bill

[the]

There are some bitter ass people in this thread.

[911boost]

Yeah man "the", this weather is killing me. It looks nice enough to drive the turbo, and then BAM, its gonna start snowing again.

I am actually not bitter.

[scottmandue]

How can you afford four cars and two motorcycles on a little more than eight bucks an hour?

[Superman]

Lots of interesting topics on which to comment. I think I'll pass on most of them. Well, let's just say it seems clear to me that some of you are not aware of the basis for this anti-trust law suits that Microsoft has been brought into in recent years both nationally and internationally. There is a reason why those suits are being brought.

Okay.....Thanks for the hyperbole-free posts, Tim. I knew you had it in you.

I like my reputation as an ultra-liberal but I'll risk that fine reputation with these next comments. Maybe. I don't have a problem with people getting rich. Indeed, I like the presence of those opportunities here. Capitalism is, indeed, one of the main things that make this country great.

I'm also not interested in throwing away tax money. I'm similarly opposed to welfare as a disincentive. So far, I suspect most of you are in agreement.

I wonder though......I wonder if there is a way to enhance incentives. I mean, aside from the brilliant suggestion that we let them starve. Quite frankly, my personal belief is that it is possible to restructure social programs so that they both cost less.....and are more effective. Here "effective" means that people are entering jobs and careers they would not have but for the programs and those jobs and careers are making welfare "contributors" out of welfare "recipients." It also means that the cycle of laziness or whatever you think it is (some think it is cultural/educational, but you guys know best), and that children are taken care of and taught how to achieve.

I think this can be done. I think it could be, in the long run, less expensive than current "handout" systems. But here's the catch: I think it will be more expensive up front.

Either that, or maybe we should just go with Legion's insightful and responsible plan of letting them starve until they "see the light."

[competentone]

Originally posted by Superman
I wonder though......I wonder if there is a way to enhance incentives. I mean, aside from the brilliant suggestion that we let them starve. Quite frankly, my personal belief is that it is possible to restructure social programs so that they both cost less.....and are more effective. Here "effective" means that people are entering jobs and careers they would not have but for the programs and those jobs and careers are making welfare "contributors" out of welfare "recipients." It also means that the cycle of laziness or whatever you think it is (some think it is cultural/educational, but you guys know best), and that children are taken care of and taught how to achieve.

I think this can be done. I think it could be, in the long run, less expensive than current "handout" systems. But here's the catch: I think it will be more expensive up front.

Either that, or maybe we should just go with Legion's insightful and responsible plan of letting them starve until they "see the light."

I'd offer "survival" security for anyone who wants it -- just as long as they under go mandatory sterilization before they receive any assistance.

Some might say my suggestion is "radical," but stop and think about it:

If a person is not even capable of sustaining their own life, logically, they are clearly incapable of providing for offspring and should not have any. (This is the "law of the jungle" -- only the "fit" get to reproduce; we've kind of messed up the natural evolutionary forces that got our species to its current position, the welfare system supports and rewards those least qualified to reproduce.)

One of the greatest benefits that we would gain, if, as a society we implemented a strict program of "sterilization before any free lunch," is that we would finally be able to determine once-and-for-all if there really are "born losers."

If, over a generation or two of a mandatory sterilization program for the "free-loaders," the free-loading population disappeared, we would know that the "lack of ambition" behavior was an inbred behavior. If on-the-other-hand, a free-loading population remained, generation after generation, we would know there are other elements at work creating the behavior besides genetics.

[Superman]

I think your suggestion will play well with many of the conservatives here. You know, the ones that hold freedom in such high regard.

[Hugh R]

Originally posted by daepp

6.2% FICA

Don't forget the 6.25% that your employer pays as matching. It all factors into the "clearing price" of what your employers costs are for hiring you. Don't think for a minute, that your not paying the employer's side as well.

Haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I think anyone who makes money in a good, hard honest way gets what they earn. If you don't think so, you should move to a communist country, if there is still truly one in existance. If you don't think the USA is socialist, your badly misinformed. I pay WAY more in taxes than I take out back from the country. Just how much more police, fire, roads, flood control, national defense, etc. does Bill Gates use than you and I, yet he pays millions and millions in taxes, (yes he acutally does).

[Rick Lee]

Originally posted by competentone
I'd offer "survival" security for anyone who wants it -- just as long as they under go mandatory sterilization before they receive any assistance.

Some might say my suggestion is "radical," but stop and think about it:

If a person is not even capable of sustaining their own life, logically, they are clearly incapable of providing for offspring and should not have any. (This is the "law of the jungle" -- only the "fit" get to reproduce; we've kind of messed up the natural evolutionary forces that got our species to its current position, the welfare system supports and rewards those least qualified to reproduce.)

One of the greatest benefits that we would gain, if, as a society we implemented a strict program of "sterilization before any free lunch," is that we would finally be able to determine once-and-for-all if there really are "born losers."

If, over a generation or two of a mandatory sterilization program for the "free-loaders," the free-loading population disappeared, we would know that the "lack of ambition" behavior was an inbred behavior. If on-the-other-hand, a free-loading population remained, generation after generation, we would know there are other elements at work creating the behavior besides genetics.

I like this idea too. A the very least, anyone on public assistance should lose it immediately if they get pregnant.

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by Superman
my personal belief is that it is possible to restructure social programs so that they both cost less.....and are more effective. Here "effective" means that people are entering jobs and careers they would not have but for the programs and those jobs and careers are making welfare "contributors" out of welfare "recipients." It also means that the cycle of laziness or whatever you think it is (some think it is cultural/educational, but you guys know best), and that children are taken care of and taught how to achieve.

I think this can be done. I think it could be, in the long run, less expensive than current "handout" systems. But here's the catch: I think it will be more expensive up front.

Superman, once again you are insightful, and looking for real answers. I like this attitude much better than the one you started this thread with.

But before we spend more money, I would like some details of the new plan. I'm not sure you have them (I don't), but if so, I'd sure be willing to listen. At least some basic concepts.

We live in a great country. A land of opportunity. I don't see myself as being in competition with my fellow Americans, as much as I see an ability to provide for my family in the way I see best.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Superman
it seems clear to me that some of you are not aware of the basis for this anti-trust law suits that Microsoft has been brought into in recent years both nationally and internationally.

Few fanboys have a clue. I had Microsoft as a client in the mid-late 80s and worked with a competitor from '87 to '93.

The stunts Microsoft pulled were flat out illegal: bribery, extortion, theft; you name it. The Gates fanboys don't know a thing about the few victims that had enough money to take action -- like Stac Electronics -- and the many that were simply destroyed. When Bill Gates publicly stated that he would destroy my client, Quarterdeck, within 6 months, it was taken quite seriously.

There are a small number of stories posted here:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0053dP

When the Clinton justice department decided to prosecute Microsoft, they set a date before which no investivations would be based. unfortunately, much of the most nefarious activities by Microsoft took place before the DOJ cutoff.

[RickM]

Success is waking up healthy and passing on the seed.

[Moneyguy1]

How about differentiating between the concept of "success" and "fulfillment".

Back in grad scool, one of my instructors asked the question: "What are your goals?" One student answered "To make millions of dollars." The professor asked a follow-up question: "Then what?"

Dead silence.