Born Losers

[Rick Lee]

BTW Off-Ramp, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has more money than all other foundations in the world combined. They do more good work than the UN does or can even afford to do and more than most other governments of the world can afford to do. If you got rid of the top 2% of earners, the government would run out of money in a matter of days. The top 2% pay around 50% of the taxes. What exactly are they taking form everyone else? Go live in N. Korea or Cuba where everyone is equally poor and you'd be among friends in your hatred of capitalism.

[Tim Hancock]

Second place is the first loser

I believe competition is a good thing. People who have a competitive nature, always seem to find a way to overcome obstacles in life and tend to naturally pursue things they are good at. I have a big problem with the way society tries to manipulate and even out "the playing field". Not keeping score in school sports and allowing everyone equal playing time IMO, hurts rather than helps kids in the long run. No matter how bad folks like Off-ramp want to punish winners and praise losers, they cannot ultimately control people that have a desire to excel in life.

[daepp]

There is no other country in the world that treats its weak and poor as well as America. Period.

[Superman]

Yes, some people enjoy competition. I do. Here in America, there are plenty of opportunities to play that game. That's good.

Wayne is right. There are lots of non-competitive folks who are plenty happy. Happiness, as it turns out, is not something the Universe does to us. It's an internal thing.

I also understand the tendency that welfare has to make people less resourceful.

And I understand that some folks are going to feel, and be, unresourceful regardless of how many food stamps they get. Even regardless of how many food stamps they are denied. Some of those people are not evil.

And then there's the assertion that social programs, since they cause taxes, also cause competitive people to be less motivated. That's funny. Like pretending that welfare changes the spots on a leopard.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by Superman


And then there's the assertion that social programs, since they cause taxes, also cause competitive people to be less motivated. That's funny. Like pretending that welfare changes the spots on a leopard.

Ahhh....that is where you were going with this all along.

Just because someone has the money doesn't mean govt should get to keep upping the ante and demanding more. When is enough enough? I mean basically the extreme left would probably not be happy until all homeowners give up their houses and cars so they must walk to work while the homeless live in their houses and drive their cars.

If this is not penalizing the winners and rewarding the losers, I don't know what is.

[M.D. Holloway]

Winner = Full tummy, paid bills, getting laid at least twice a week, kids not in jail.

Loser = not a winner

[techweenie]

Originally posted by daepp
There is no other country in the world that treats its weak and poor as well as America. Period.

I've traveled a bit outside the US and this doesn't pass the smell test.

If you have some independent corroboration for this, I'd like to see it.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
Ahhh....that is where you were going with this all along.

Just because someone has the money doesn't mean govt should get to keep upping the ante and demanding more. When is enough enough? I mean basically the extreme left would probably not be happy until all homeowners give up their houses and cars so they must walk to work while the homeless live in their houses and drive their cars.

If this is not penalizing the winners and rewarding the losers, I don't know what is.

Whoa! First of all, I post these threads for discussion purposes. In them, I offer my observations and perceptions. These are not games or traps.

You think liberals hope to eliminate personal ownership of real estate and automobiles. Please, Tim, engage in these conversations or just leave them alone. It is not possible for me to believe that Tim Hancock is an intelligent person who believes that half of America detests home ownership and automobiles. If the villification of socially responsible thinking has been so effective that smart conservatives believe social liberals are vicious demons bent on causing misery and wretchedness for all Americans, then I guess you and others who are similarly fooled simply cannot be productive participants in these discussions.

Yes, part of my agenda with this thread is to see if somebody will say "Right, Superman. There are born losers. People who, through no fault of their own, will not be economic winners in America. Bummer. This is a nation of competitors, and there are losers. Too bad for them, all the better for the winners. Winners win. Losers lose. We have no responsibility toward either."

If that is your feeling, say so. If not, then you believe, as do most Americans, that we have some responsibility to people less fortunate than ourselves. Okay. If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of how to take care of those people.

If you were respectfully reporting that we have an obligation to these people but that gubmit programs have gotten out of hand, great. I will be delighted to listen to your view and engage respectfully in that discussion. But when you start making the ridiculous remarks like I see above, I am saddened. I want to discuss these things with you. I respect your views, Tim. If I were to take the above remark at face value, I'd have to dismiss you as a kook.

__________________________________

I have no way of believing that entrepeneurs would fold up their tents and stop competing if taxes are raised. Some, close to retirement, would throw in the towel. Sure. But the guy who makes custom boat trailers is not going to close up shop and go to work as a Welder at Zeiglers. That's like saying that if you made the hoop smaller, basketball players would switch to soccer.

[DaveE]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
Winner = Full tummy, paid bills, getting laid at least twice a week, kids not in jail.

Loser = not a winner

Wow, I was beginning to feel a bit like a loser 'til you posted this.

I like your formula. Makes me a winner.

[Burnin' oil]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
Winner = Full tummy, paid bills, getting laid at least twice a week, kids not in jail.

Loser = not a winner

Do I have to have 4/4 to be a winner? What about 3/4? Does that make me mostly a winner? What about 2/2? Does juvenile hall count as jail?

Supe,

I disagree with your basic premise that there are winners and losers based on economic status, or on any status for that matter.

[daepp]

Superamn - I thoguht Mr. Hancock was speaking hyperbolically - however, as my tax burden increase and I read more and more strange proposals by my left leaning lawmakers, conservatives do start to wonder how much is enough for the left.

I come from a family of Southern Democrats who believed in helping the less fortunate - esp. as a Christinan obligation, not a government one. Now I read Michigan is proposing Ipods for every student - and that's not near as wacky as the stuff coming out of Sacramento these days, and I too wonder how much is enough.

My tax burden is now greater than 50%. When youa dd to that the property taxes I pay to put others' kids through school, the sales taxes I pay, the gas taxes I pay that quit going to roads years ago, and yeah, I do want to know how much is enough.


Percentiles Ranked by AGI


AGI Threshold on Percentiles


Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1% $328,049 36.89

Top 5% $137,056 57.13

Top 10% $99,112 68.19

Top 25% $60,041 84.86

Top 50% $30,122 96.70

Bottom 50%<$30,122 3.30

A bit off topic, I know, but if my tax rate gets any higher I don;t know if I want to keep building my business.

[Tim Hancock]

Whatever Supe.

Just for fun I will try to simply list a few thoughts I have on this subject.

IMO,

We already have a welfare system in place to care for those down on their luck. I am OK with a basic system to provide food and shelter for those who TRULY cannot fend for themselves in any way.

My problem is that I think the system is too far reaching as it is, yet I still often hear those on the left say it is not enough.

I feel that more than half of the people on welfare have made the bed they are lying in thru poor decisions on their part thus far in life. I do not feel it is societies' responsibility to pay their way.

The left typically claims that the rich (who already pay way more in total dollars than any other income level) should pay more. They not only want more money from the rich, but at the same time they try to paint anyone who is succesful in life as the devil.

I on the other hand, respect those who were creative/smart/industrious enough to rise to the top. I am just plain sick of hearing liberals denounce the likes of Bill Gates just because he happened to be very succesful in life.

While my analogy to taking the homes from the rich and giving them to the poor is a bit over the top, I feel that many on the left (such as On-Ramp and even you to some extent) are not far off from thinking along those lines.

This is America where immigrants with nothing have and still do come here, work hard and reach their dreams. We are not in the "great depression" presently, we need to stop acting as though we are.

OK, sermon over.

[Moneyguy1]

It would be interesting to include in that table the aggregate (and mean) income for the classes involved.

[daepp]

The first dollar # is the average AGI.

[Moneyguy1]

Thanks.....didn't get that.......Now...what is the aggregate income of the top 1% or the top 5%? What percent of total national inclme belongs to the top 1% or 5%? Just curious...Raw numbers do not a cogent argumant make.....

I am involved in finance and still not convinced that the upper brackets are "paying too much" and some of my clientele agree.

[daepp]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Thanks.....didn't get that.......Now...what is the aggregate income of the top 1% or the top 5%? What percent of total national inclme belongs to the top 1% or 5%? Just curious...Raw numbers do not a cogent argumant make.....

I am involved in finance and still not convinced that the upper brackets are "paying too much" and some of my clientele agree.

Are you asking how much in total dollars did they all earn? I do not have that number. Could you please explain how that is important.

BTW - I ahve a good test of fairness - explain the "progressive" tax system to an elementary school child, and show them the facts of who pays what. See if they think it's fair.

As to clientele (and liberals, for that matter) who think the upper brackets are not high enough, they are always welcome to send a check to the US Treasury. There is nothing stopping them you know.

[Burnin' oil]

Anyone who thinks that taxes are not high enough should put their money where their mouth is and voluntarily pay more, but leave me out of it. I pay way too much, especially when I see where it goes.

[Rick Lee]

Moneyguy, it's true that people with a lot of money who manage it well can probably get away with a lower effective tax rate than people who make less money. If all your income is from tax-free municipal bonds, then you're probably gonna look like you're undertaxed. But these people are a tiny minority. If they're the ones you deal with, then obviously you're seeing the financially savvy and well-off folks. But check out some of the commissioned sales folks like car salesmen, realtors, loan officers and see how they get crushed with AMT and in some places pretty hefty local taxes on incomes over $100k and those folks pay plenty.

[JCF]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
Winner = Full tummy, paid bills, getting laid at least twice a week, kids not in jail.

Loser = not a winner

And what happens when the winner becomes a loser - like say during the Great Depression ?
Or if you get sick to the point where getting laid is not a top priority but paying the bills are ?
or, God forbid the kids are not in jail but severely wounded - say fighting in Iraq ?

[legion]

Bad things happen to good people.

I'm yet to figure out how it is my responsibility to fix this.