Dear God...

[equality72521]

Originally posted by nostatic
yes. yes it is. that god's going to kick your god's ass. after school. next to the swings.

Official prayer in school is great as long as it's MY god we're praying to. If it's your god...well, that just isn't right. Get out of my country, you heathen!

Exactly. This country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution. Now we are a country saying there is only one god and yours isn't the right one. Sounds like religious persecution all over again.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by cashflyer
Do you pray?
Maybe before a meal... or maybe before bed...?
Do you pray when a loved one is sick or dying?

I ask because, as I understand it, if the free-will doctrine is absolute, then God will not, must not, and indeed CAN NOT ever answer a prayer.

Obeying God and having faith that he will smile upon you is one thing, but for him to answer a any specific prayer would violate the entire premise of free will.

So... do you pray?

When I pray, I don't ask God for things.

When I pray, I thank God for things that have already happened.

Praying for things, from a good deal on a car to saving a dying grandmother is an insult to God and "his" plan. Faith doesn't require prayer, in fact, I'd say prayer itself is an insult to God. When you have to set aside a special time and say special things to have a conversation with God, you don't have a relationship with God. You have a monologue.

[Superman]

Two common misperceptions:

God does not fail to answer all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no.

God is here to help. His hands are at the ends of our arms.

[kang]

Originally posted by Superman

God does not fail to answer all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no.

That's a cop-out if I ever heard one.

Why doesn't god ever heal an amputee?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by kang
That's a cop-out if I ever heard one.

Why doesn't god ever heal an amputee?

Why would He want to?

We cannot see into others' hearts and souls. For the sake of argument, let's say God can. His mission is to bring everyone closer to Him. He uses the trials and tribulations of this life to do so. Our time here on earth isn't even a blip on His eternal time line. Assuming an afterlife (again, for the sake of argument) with (or without) Him, and that He is preparing folks for that, He may very well see that kind of hardship as a small price to pay for finding Him.

The somewhat childish reaction here in this life is "but that is not 'fair'". As a father, I used to hear that all the time from my young boys. What they saw, from their child-like point of view, seemed incredibly "unfair" to them, or even as a hardship. What I saw, from my fatherly point of view, was something that would mold and shape them as people; as better people. I see that as a very simple microcosm of what God does with His children here on earth.

I find it somewhat of an irony that very often the folks enduring these hardships are brought closer to God. The other people in their lives, or observing their live from afar as the case may be, are driven away from God by their perception of "unfairness". This perception tells them there cannot be a God; otherwise life would be more "fair". Mere children, they are. They, almost as a rule, squawk louder than the actual person or people suffering the "unfairness".

God is not "fair" by any means from our earthly point of view. He could really care less about our comfort and well-being while here on earth. This is the crucible in which He refines us; it is going to be "hard" for all of us, at one level or another. In the grand scheme of things, though, the time spent here is entirely inconsequential outside of the relationship you develop with Him.

Your rememberances of this life on earth will be as those you hold today of your early childhood. This life is a shadow of what is to come. You will look back upon what you now see as unfair hardships and realize they formed you into what you then will be. We will leave this world still as infants on our path to development and knowledge; what our Father allows us to experience here are the first baby steps on that path.

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by kang
Why doesn't god ever heal an amputee?

It's against the "free will" rules. Read my previous post.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Why would He want to?

We cannot see into others' hearts and souls. For the sake of argument, let's say God can. His mission is to bring everyone closer to Him. He uses the trials and tribulations of this life to do so. Our time here on earth isn't even a blip on His eternal time line. Assuming an afterlife (again, for the sake of argument) with (or without) Him, and that He is preparing folks for that, He may very well see that kind of hardship as a small price to pay for finding Him.

The somewhat childish reaction here in this life is "but that is not 'fair'". As a father, I used to hear that all the time from my young boys. What they saw, from their child-like point of view, seemed incredibly "unfair" to them, or even as a hardship. What I saw, from my fatherly point of view, was something that would mold and shape them as people; as better people. I see that as a very simple microcosm of what God does with His children here on earth.

I find it somewhat of an irony that very often the folks enduring these hardships are brought closer to God. The other people in their lives, or observing their live from afar as the case may be, are driven away from God by their perception of "unfairness". This perception tells them there cannot be a God; otherwise life would be more "fair". Mere children, they are. They, almost as a rule, squawk louder than the actual person or people suffering the "unfairness".

God is not "fair" by any means from our earthly point of view. He could really care less about our comfort and well-being while here on earth. This is the crucible in which He refines us; it is going to be "hard" for all of us, at one level or another. In the grand scheme of things, though, the time spent here is entirely inconsequential outside of the relationship you develop with Him.

Your rememberances of this life on earth will be as those you hold today of your early childhood. This life is a shadow of what is to come. You will look back upon what you now see as unfair hardships and realize they formed you into what you then will be. We will leave this world still as infants on our path to development and knowledge; what our Father allows us to experience here are the first baby steps on that path.

Well said Jeff.

[kang]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Why would He want to?

The point on the amputee thing is this.

God heals people with cancer, right? The vast majority of Christians believe this. He answers other prayers, right? Again, the vast majority of Christians believe this. He heals all kinds of sicknesses and diseases, right? I’m sure you know of someone who has had some illness and has attributed their healing to god. God has answered their prayers.

So the answer to “Why would he want to” is “for the same reasons he heals other things.” If he heals other sicknesses, and answers other prayers, why does he not answer the prayers of amputees and their families?

This issue is addressed as question number 1 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ

One of the main points he makes is that “You have to invent an excuse on god’s behalf to explain this strange fact of life.” That is exactly what you have done in this post.

The remaining nine questions are in need of rebuttal as well.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by kang
The point on the amputee thing is this.

God heals people with cancer, right? The vast majority of Christians believe this. He answers other prayers, right? Again, the vast majority of Christians believe this. He heals all kinds of sicknesses and diseases, right? I’m sure you know of someone who has had some illness and has attributed their healing to god. God has answered their prayers.

I believe He has "answered" these prayers via the skill endowed upon our physicians.

Originally posted by kang
So the answer to “Why would he want to” is “for the same reasons he heals other things.” If he heals other sicknesses, and answers other prayers, why does he not answer the prayers of amputees and their families?

Many severed limbs are re-attached these days. He "heals" some of them in the same manner in which He "heals" those with other ailments. In neither case will He heal all; in neither case will the sky part and a "miracle" happen.

Originally posted by kang
This issue is addressed as question number 1 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ

One of the main points he makes is that “You have to invent an excuse on god’s behalf to explain this strange fact of life.” That is exactly what you have done in this post.

With your very limited knowledge of what scripture reveals to us about God's ways, I can see where you would think so.

Originally posted by kang
The remaining nine questions are in need of rebuttal as well.

No they are not; they are not even worth addressing. They are presented in an incredibly juvenile, ignorant fashion not worthy of rebuttal. They are rife with so many pre-school theological missunderstandings that they would be laughable, but for the fact that some adults think they actually have some merit.

Tell you what Kang, I think you owe it to yourself to take the time to educate yourself in theology. I think you will find it fascinating. It will better prepare you not only for these discussions, but to make a more informed decision for your life. Then you, too, can see the errors in materials such as the video you keep presenting. For anyone with the most cursory of theological understanding, your observance of that video as providing any basis for discussion tells us the baseline from which you are dealing. It is very clear that you have no more than a passing knowledge of the topic. You seem genuinly interested in it at some level, if only to discredit it. Even at that, you owe it to yourself to learn something about it. At least that way we won't have to keep re-hashing the "Theology 101" concepts with you.

[dtw]

Originally posted by kang
Why doesn't god ever heal an amputee?

He does, all the time. You're just not paying close enough attention.

Or were you expecting them to sprout new mitts?

[teenerted1]

One day God was looking down at Earth and saw all of the rascally behavior that was going on. So he called one of His angels and sent the angel to Earth for a time.

When he returned, he told God, "Yes, it is bad on Earth; 95% are misbehaving and only 5% are not.

God thought for a moment and said, "Maybe I had better send down a second angel to get another opinion."

So God called another angel and sent him to Earth for a time.

When the angel returned he went to God and said, "Yes, it's true.
The Earth is in decline; 95% are misbehaving, but 5% are being good."

God was not pleased. So He decided to e-mail the 5% that were good, because he wanted to encourage them, and give them a little something to help them keep going.

Do you know what the e-mail said?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Okay, I was just wondering, because I didn't get one either.

[kang]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
I believe He has "answered" these prayers via the skill endowed upon our physicians.

The key word here is “believe.” You can’t say one way or another, can you? If you attribute this healing to “the skill endowed upon our physicians” then you have to attribute everything else to “the skill endowed upon X” whatever X may be. Anything and everything we do requires some skill. Why is this one skill special?

The baby learned to walk, due to the god given skill endowed upon it.
That was an excellent musician, due to the god endowed skill.
He is a very, very poor athlete, yet he is still using his god endowed skill.
Etc, etc. Everything.

I believe the skill endowed upon our physicians came from medical school. What is taught in medical school comes from what we have learned in the past, each generation adding to that knowledge. Currently, we can re-attach some severed limbs. In a future generation, who knows?

What makes more sense? A magical imaginary being endowed these skills upon our physicians, or they learned these skills in medical schools?

Yes, I am no theologian, but I recognize “god works in mysterious ways” when I see it. That is the basic rebuttal to the question “why doesn’t god heal amputees,” just re-worded. That is also the only rebuttal to the other nine questions as well.

[ewave]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
...
Reply:

Dear Concerned Student:
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,

God...
-\

So, just what was the reason for the 5 school girls being tied up and shot to death last October 3, 2006 in the Amish school? Were they not religious enough?

Are you suggesting or implying that a god would have intervened in Virginia if the god had been prayed to or honored in some sort of way?

[david914]

Originally posted by Superman
Two common misperceptions:

God does not fail to answer all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no.

God is here to help. His hands are at the ends of our arms.

Very well-said.

[speeder]

The only god that would have helped those students at VT is the god of Colt, in someone else's hand. Unfortunately, that god wasn't present.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by kang
Yes, I am no theologian,

That much is all too apparent. Your replies demonstrate as much very clearly. You have based your assumption upon a lack of knowledge.

Originally posted by kang
but I recognize “god works in mysterious ways” when I see it. That is the basic rebuttal to the question “why doesn’t god heal amputees,” just re-worded. That is also the only rebuttal to the other nine questions as well.

No, you clearly do not. You have demonstrated no understanding of what that glib little quote means. I don't like it any more than you do, as it really is used by religious folks to cover up their lack of perception and understanding. It's a lazy answer. That is not, however, the answer I have given you.

You see it as such because of your lack of understanding of the material at hand and your eagerness to lump us all together. You have closed your mind to this; you have made a concious decision to remain ignorant. Yet you continue to comment from your admitted postion of willfull ignorance. Interesting. Anyway, like I said earlier, I think you would find theology fascinating. Take a look, if you are truly willing to learn something new. I really don't think you are, however, and that is unfortunate. You seem like a bright enough guy.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Going back to school keeps sounding better and better.

Now if they could just keep the Jesus freaks out of school too, it'd be a utopia.

Prayer has always struck me as kind of strange - on the one hand we're "supposed" to believe in the omnipotent and flawless nature of a diety with a master plan for everything. Prayer to ask for a "variance" of the plan seems to me to be a bit. . . well. . . callous. It's like saying "Hey God? Yeah. It's me. Your plan sucks. Change it for me, mmkay?"

Kind of ironic, no?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Going back to school keeps sounding better and better.

Now if they could just keep the Jesus freaks out of school too, it'd be a utopia.

Prayer has always struck me as kind of strange - on the one hand we're "supposed" to believe in the omnipotent and flawless nature of a diety with a master plan for everything. Prayer to ask for a "variance" of the plan seems to me to be a bit. . . well. . . callous. It's like saying "Hey God? Yeah. It's me. Your plan sucks. Change it for me, mmkay?"

Kind of ironic, no?

Exactly. Very selfish, very human, very Western "Me" culture. It says we know better than God. The worst part is of course timing. "Give me this now, I neeeeeeeeed it." "Save my dying grandmother now, subtext: ease her pain, ease mine in dealing with hers."

We need less prayer on demand, more continuous, spontaneous "what can I do to be closer to God."



EDIT: and if quid pro quo prayer actually worked, I'd be praying all day to get my visa to go to India. currently in musak hell on hold with the consulate.

maybe a burnt offering or other such sacrifice is in order.

[Superman]

Some things have to be believed to be seen. Kang's perspective on this is from an angle that conceals a portion of the view that we see, Jeff. You know this.

This current curiosity, this question about why doesn't God stop human misery, is related to the curiosity about why the Pope does not throw condoms from his motorcade. God, and the Pope, are not concerned with peoples' physical health or even their happiness or well-being. They are concerned about peoples' souls. And quite frankly, physical health and spiritual health are somewhat negatively correlated.

We're all going to get sick and die. That's the setup already. God designed this place so that we get old, sick and we die. Plug that into your computer program and see what comes out. If God thought that a pox, like HIV for instance, would bring people closer to Him, then the pox would be a good thing. The length of a physical life is insignificant. The degree of happiness is, even more so, insignificant. What is significant is the shape of our soul at the time of our death. And if misery makes that soul more beautiful ( and it usually does have this effect ), then give me misery.

It seems to very basic and easy to understand. Makes one wonder why this is so difficult for folks like Kang. Except that we know the answer to that too don't we, Jeff? Kang's viewpoint is a decision.

[kang]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
No, you clearly do not. You have demonstrated no understanding of what that glib little quote means. I don't like it any more than you do, as it really is used by religious folks to cover up their lack of perception and understanding. It's a lazy answer. That is not, however, the answer I have given you.

You see it as such because of your lack of understanding of the material at hand and your eagerness to lump us all together. You have closed your mind to this; you have made a concious decision to remain ignorant. Yet you continue to comment from your admitted postion of willfull ignorance. Interesting. Anyway, like I said earlier, I think you would find theology fascinating. Take a look, if you are truly willing to learn something new. I really don't think you are, however, and that is unfortunate. You seem like a bright enough guy.

Perhaps you missunderstand what I mean when I say “God works in mysterious ways.” Let me see if I can explain myself better.

Yes, this phrase is certainly “used by religious folks to cover up their lack of perception and understanding.” This is the lazy answer case.

There is another case, though, the real theological case. Let’s take the example you gave above, about god using “the trials and tribulations of life” to bring people closer to him. I see this as justification of the trials and tribulations of life, while you see it as god in action.

I have trials and tribulations in my life, yet they have not brought me closer to god. We all have trials and tribulations, yet not all of us are brought closer to god. So I see this “bring you closer to god” thing as a cop-out, a justification of why bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to everyone at the same statistical rate. That’s logic. That’s rational. That’s common sense.

Theology may have a reason for these hardships, yet the common sense reason is far easier for me to swallow.

You will no doubt answer why my trials and tribulations have not brought me to god with “you have not been chosen.” Again, this is the theological answer. My answer is that there is no god. Again, this is far easier to swallow than thinking that there is a god who has forsaken me.

Another example of this is what Jeff above: “He has "answered" these prayers via the skill endowed upon our physicians.” The common sense answer is they learned these skills in medical school.

Atheists pose many theological questions. There is always a complicated theological answer. There is always a common sense answer, one that does not require a god. Whether the theological answer is the lazy case, or has come from years of theological study, makes no difference to me. The common sense answer always wins. You say I have closed my mind to the theological answers, but I would say you have closed your mind to the common sense answers.

It’s this difference between the theological answer and the common sense answer that I call “god works in mysterious ways.”