crap! home electric issue

[GO DAWG GO]

Masraum,

I havnt read all the threads and dont know if anyone has told you.

Your breaker box is segregated into two 120 volt buss bars with a common off to the right side. Each 120 Volt busses have a series of 120v breakers isolating each circuit. Each circuit should have a black (Hot) 120V with a white common and a green ground. The white and green are ultimately connected together at the ground stake below your breaker box. The buss to the right were all your commons are connected should have no voltage between it and the green ground because they are connected in the circuit. You should only get a 120V reading across the black and white/green. The lower voltage is indicative of galvanic corrosion between dissimular metals. Any voltage reading from your white wire indicates a short probably in the box where your light switch is. The switch should open and close the black circuit only. FYI 220V is two 120 volt breakers integrated as one creating utilizing 2 blacks at 120V and a ground (green).

Poke around in the box and untie the connections. check for corrosion and discolored (Hot) conductors. strip the old off and twist tie then back together. (If you have enough service loop) If you run into any problems PM me. later...I was an electrician in my past...

Thanks

Bob

[snowman]

The crimp "fix" is probably good, IF properly done. Thats a problem, the big IF factor. Even then the connection may not be up to snuff, ie up to lab conditions that evaluated the "fix". Only a TOP NOTCH electrician with the proper equipment and enough smarts to know when the thing isn't working like it should, should make such a repair. Only problem with this is finding a top notch electrician that will sign up on the dotted line for the "fix". Someone who would put his reputation, entire assets on the line to fix an old house like this? I don't know of anyone who would, but maybe you can find someone. Thats the practical aspect of your problem. Carfully investigate the background of anyone who is willing to sign up for this job.

Just remember that the same people that approved the fix are the same people that originally approved Al wire in the first place. If Al wire were all that great and the pigtale worked all that good, thats the way we would be wiring homes today.

You should probably do the fix yourself if you do not want to rewire with copper. Go to AMP and buy the tool, most likely a $200 to $400 item, with instructions on its use. The wire is insignificant in cost. The rest, just labor. Remember to turn off the power when working on it. And remember that if you ever sell the house and the wiring causes a fire, its your assets on the line. Even if you have someone else fix it and they screw it up, your assets may still be on the line. I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Its not that the fix may be a problem, its just our fked up legal system.

Al wire can and WILL cause a fire eventually. For low amp home circuits there is no alternative to copper at this time.

[masraum]

Yeah, I've taken apart the 6 wall outlets, the neutral connections at the 4 wall switches, and the 3 ceiling boxes. I still have the problem. With all of the switches in the off positions I get an "open neutral" on my tester or with something plugged in and turned on I get "hot/ground crossed" which is apparently normal for an open neutral. There are pigtail connections in the breaker box. They weren't done with the spiffy crip tool, but they aren't very old and did use noalox. I've checked them all and reconnected them. I still don't see a fix for the problem. I can't imagine that there's another spot where this circuit goes that I'm missing, but I guess there could be. What a pain in the ass. I really don't want to call an electrician and pay him several hundred dollars for something that he finds quickly.

[snowman]

You will not get a hot/ground crossed indication for an open neutral. The device is measuring a voltage between the neutral and ground and there should never be any voltage between these points, period, even with an open neutral. Your wiring is fked up.

Using an ac voltmeter, check the voltage between a water pipe and the ground (middle) connection. There should not be any voltage, zero, if you do have a voltage, you have a serious problem. Next, if there is no voltage between the ground and the water pipe, check the ohms between the water pipe and the ground connection. You must get a very low number, like almost the same as just connecting the leads togather. Zero ohms is ideal, less than 10 ohms for sure. If you do not pass these 2 tests your wiring is downright dangerous and must be fixed. If you pass these tests, you can have confidence that your indicator is telling you the truth, go by it. Hot/ground crossed is very dangerous.

Black is the color for DEATH, ie the HOT wire, you should have 120v between it and the ground or the neutral. White is safe and you should not have any voltage between it and the ground. Don't understand this, get an electrician or you will hurt yourself. I chose not to tell you which prong, the long or short is hot, go by your indicator. Just covering my butt in case you screw it up. Life can be short if you screw up.

I just re read your first post. Your wiring is backward and dangerous. Whoever did this, screwed up, big time.

Green is GROUND
White is Neutral
Black is HOT

Never any voltage from green to white, period.
Always 120v from green to black OR white to black.

Someone said forget going after the builder, maybe, but whoever re wired your house should be in the hot seat, no matter how long ago you bought it. They certainly did NOT have it inspected, they certainly did NOT do it to code.

CurtEgerer, you seem to know what your talking about, give your opinion again, after re reading just what was said in the original post. I think someone screwed up, big time and should be on the hook to fix it. They knew there was a problem, they did not know how to fix it, and they screwed it up trying to fix it. They made a bad problem, a very dangerous problem.

[notfarnow]

Some great info in this thread, thanks snowman.

My house was rewired by the PO. My personal theory is that he did the work at night, after his 3rd or 4th rum & coke.

I have found some spooky stuff and even had an electrical fire a couple months ago. Advice like snowman's is invaluable. I wish there was a forum like Pelican for homeowners & DIYers.

[masraum]

No, I don't have hot/ground reversed. It's just not the case.

The house was built in 1967.

With all of the switches for the 3 overhead boxes turned off and nothing plugged into any of the outlets the tester shows "open neutral". That's what the real problem is.

If you do a search on the internet for "hot ground reversed" you'll get several hits where folks had a circuit die, and then got the "hot/ground reversed" and then managed to fix the open neutral that they had.

I don't think that circuits that have tested good and been working fine for 40 years spontaneously rewire themselves.

When you think about it getting the ground and hot connections reversed would be pretty darn hard to do, especially when you had a working circuit and then it stops working and you havent touched a thing. The reason you get this hot/ground reverse as I understand is that with other loads plugged in to the circuit...lights, battery chargers etc when your neutral opens somewhere in the circuit you can actully read 120 volts from neutral to ground from backfeed through these other loads on the circuit.

[Superman]

I've chatted with some electricians and electrical inspectors about this. They don't like Al wiring, but they also believe it can be safe. The problem is that the connections get loose over time. Tighten those connections, and the system should work fine. Every connection should be accessible.

[Superman]

It's a tedius job, but you can also test each wire, wire by wire, to confirm continuity and to confirm the locations of the connections at each end.

[masraum]

Originally posted by Superman
I've chatted with some electricians and electrical inspectors about this. They don't like Al wiring, but they also believe it can be safe. The problem is that the connections get loose over time. Tighten those connections, and the system should work fine. Every connection should be accessible.

Yes, it's not great, and can get brittle, but as long as you tighten the connection periodically it seems to work OK (40 years and counting).

The weird thing is that I've taken every connection apart that I can find in this circuit and it's still not working. I can only assume that I'm missing one. I've been working on it in the evenings when I get home. I think I'll just have to wait until the weekend when I have more time.

[red-beard]

How about at the breaker box end?

[masraum]

I've replaced the breaker (had a spare). Also, the guy that replaced the breaker box connected copper pigtails to the aluminum wire and then connected the other end of the copper to the common ground bar. I removed all of the wirenuts on the pigtails last night, wiggled all of the connections, and then put the nuts back on. I found a brittle wire and fixed that, but it was on a different circuit.

I'm going to hold off working on it more until this weekend when I have more time and feel less pressured.

[snowman]

Must be some kind of funky tester to indicate what yours is doing. To get this indication your tester should be seeing a voltage between the neutral and ground, not good.

Forget the tester, use an ac voltmeter. First check the ground like I suggested. Do not skip the continuity to the water pipe check, its absolutely necessary. This test will verify that the hot is or is not reversed, no if ands or butts about it.

And yes they can be reversed and work for fourty years without apparent problems especially if the neutral is open. Very dangerous situation if true. I have seen this in the bathroom of a house I flipped last year. To make matters worse they had wired an extra outlet in series with he miswired one and connected the switch wrong. Plug a vacuum cleaner in the hallway and the bathroom light came on! The ground wire was there, but it wasn't connected to actual ground. If some had grabbed a "grounded" piece of equipment and a water fawcet at the same time they would have been fried. fortunately many bathroom appliances do not depend on a ground connection and are double insulated instead.

You can keep tightening your connections as long as you like but the danger of fire will still be there and it can happen at any time. Very bad advice to continue down this path, kinda like smoking while you fuel your car, you can go for years without any problems.

[masraum]

Apparently it's not unusual for this type of tester to show that result under certain circumstances. I agree it's odd.

I've tested the house before and know that all of the outlets tested normal, so it would be unusual for an entire circuit to rewire itself after 40 years. I understand that it could have been done originally, but I'm certain that it wasn't.

I understand that there's a fire hazard. Unless you're going to pay to replace my wiring I'm going to keep going the way I have been.

[carambola]

what section of the house is this problem occuring in?

i got 10 to 1 odds the problem is in a recepticle that is working fine.

shut down the problem circuit and find what else goes off.

take your time and be patient.

[masraum]

Originally posted by carambola
what section of the house is this problem occuring in?

i got 10 to 1 odds the problem is in a recepticle that is working fine.

shut down the problem circuit and find what else goes off.

take your time and be patient.

I was thinking that too, but I can't find another outlet that this circuit is supplying. I suspect that there may be one, that's why I'm going to finish working on it this weekend when I can devote the time and thought to it that it needs.

Thanks

[carambola]

look on the other side of the wall, one room closer to the panel
remember, the last one working in the circuit, is the problem

[dhoward]

Look at the neutral buss. Wire could have loosened, broken.
Al wiring is as safe as copper if maintained. i.e. connections maintained, grease used, cu/al compatable compnents.
I too herded electrons in a past life.

[jim49ers]

+1 on carambola..... what section of the house is this problem occuring in?

i got 10 to 1 odds the problem is in a recepticle that is working fine.

shut down the problem circuit and find what else goes off.

take your time and be patient.


______________30yrs of being a electrical contractor...100% new construction...

[masraum]

In the drawing the blue stuff is on an adjacent circuit. The red/black box in top left is the breaker box. The 6 red boxes are outlets, the 3 red circles are overhead lights, and the 4 red dashes are switches that control the three overhead lights and the outlet that's on the side of the stairs. So all of the outlets in the one room are on that circuit, and in the other room, only one of the outlets are on the circuit in question.

Sat I'm going to completely disassemble the circuit. I'll get to the bottom of this.

[snowman]

Forget that stupid tester. Just run the test using a multimeter (ac voltmeter/ ohm meter). The tester is a black box and there is no way to know for sure why its behaving the way it is. Again the test I outlined is just about as simple and is foolproof. It will tell exactly what the problem is.

Typically several outlets are wired in sucession, consequently, the wiring from one to the next may be a problem. Again, the test I discribed, ran on each outlet, will identify and find the source of the problem.

It will take you about 10 minutes to run this test on several outlets and your problem will be identified and a solution at hand.