The God Poll

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by stuartj
I assume you are addressing me.

The idea of everlasting life is absolutely central to the Judeo Christian tradition. It is repeatedly referenced in the bible, it is core to the Christian belief.

Now, you say are a believer. You say beleivers wil live for ever. Are you now saying you dont beleive in afterlife?

You questioned my integrity over this. Whayt exactly do you believe?

I guess I'll try to explain it so a 7 year old will understand.
This thread is not about Judeo Christian anything. The question is "do you believe in God?"
The belief in God does not automatically assume any religious belief.
That is where you are struggling.
Religious Believers have tenants of there religious organization that may include an afterlife.
What I believe religiously has no bearing on The God Poll.
I never said I have an eternity to wait. Nor did I comment on the afterlife other than to say, some people have an eternity to wait. Other don't.
You must admit that some people believe in an afterlife. You are trying your best to attribute that understanding to all people that believe in God . When you do that you are in error.

BTW: to answer your question as it pertains to this thread "The God Poll", I believe that all thing that exist were created. I call that creator God.
I also believe that Turbo Charging is the finest evolution of the internal combustion engine.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
I guess I'll try to explain it so a 7 year old will understand.
This thread is not about Judeo Christian anything. The question is "do you believe in God?"
The belief in God does not automatically assume any religious belief.
That is where you are struggling.
Religious Believers have tenants of there religious organization that may include an afterlife.
What I believe religiously has no bearing on The God Poll.
I never said I have an eternity to wait. Nor did I comment on the afterlife other than to say, some people have an eternity to wait. Other don't.
You must admit that some people believe in an afterlife. You are trying your best to attribute that understanding to all people that believe in God . When you do that you are in error.

BTW: to answer your question as it pertains to this thread "The God Poll", I believe that all thing that exist were created. I call that creator God.
I also believe that Turbo Charging is the finest evolution of the internal combustion engine.

You are being disingenous Turbo, and trying to deflect.

You have declared yourself a believer.

It was you, not me, who raised in THIS thread the notion that believers will "have eternity to learn" or words to that effect. And this would seem to be consistent with the broadly held beliefs of Christians, and indeed other faiths.

Now, I may have made an assumption about your beliefs, but I think not unreasonbly, given the totality of your statements. Yet you quite savagley questioned my integrity and credibility for doing so.

So, this the extent of my interest as to what you may or may not belief. Im asking you to clarify- do YOU believe in an afterlife?

If no, please accept my apologies for misrepresenting your views.

If yes, I'll be pleased to accept yours.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by stuartj
.......edit........ Im asking you to clarify- do YOU believe in an afterlife? ..........edit...............

You seem to know all but lack the insight to glean the answer to this very simple question.

Asked and answered.

Search my previous post on other threads and you'll find exactly what I believe.
If you're too lazy to search, you're not worth my time to answer.

[stuartj]

OK Turbo. Im not interested in "gleaning" which version of the god fairy tale to which you subscibe.

The horns of dilemma. Deny a fundament of your belief, or admit that, on this occasion, you were a flaming ass.

A gentleman would apologise rather than obfuscate further. Anyone reading this thread can decide for themselves who has the integrity issue.

[72doug2,2S]

Originally posted by stuartj
And who created the Creator's Creator. And on and on.

Aquinas wrote of the The Unmoved Mover, The Uncaused Cause and the Cosmological Argument (some non physical thing caused physocal things to exist) within his five "proofs."

As Dawkins says "all three of these arguments rely upon the idea of a regress and invoke God to terminate it. They make the entirely unwarranted assumption that God himself is immune to the regress."

That you would even bring Dawkins and Aquinas into the same discussion is amazing! Dawkins has no, repeat no, credibility in the realm of philosophy. As a biologist I have no qualms, as a philosopher he is inane.

I'm sure you could find someone qualified to make your point. It really shouldn't be that hard.

[stuartj]

You know, you'd be more effective Doug, if you addressed the point as well as slamming the source.

Dawkins talks about Aquninas in The The God Delsuion. IIRC, you said you hadnt read it? l

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by stuartj
..............edit.....
The horns of dilemma. Deny a fundament of your belief, or admit that, on this occasion, you were a flaming ass. ........edit.......

Once again you build an argument on facts not in evidence. Even in this space, some rules must apply.

You tried your best to make the argument about me not my position. I refused to play your game.

You call me a "flaming ass" but actually your ass is the one flaming. "Burns don't It ?"

[72doug2,2S]

Originally posted by stuartj
You know, you'd be more effective Doug, if you addressed the point as well as slamming the source.

Dawkins talks about Aquninas in The The God Delsuion. IIRC, you said you hadnt read it? l

Here's what the biologist Dawkins has to say on philosophy.

We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that p;
Therefore
p is true.

See any problems with that? Yes, it's an invalid argument. If I went to my HR head and announced that my boss just authorized a $50,000 bonus for me. The HR head wants to know why I think so. I tell him that we know of no irrefutable objections for it to be possible that my boss did this, therefore it's true.

Time to look for another job and Dawkins shouldn't quit his day job.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
Once again you build an argument on facts not in evidence. Even in this space, some rules must apply.

You tried your best to make the argument about me not my position. I refused to play your game.

You call me a "flaming ass" but actually your ass is the one flaming. "Burns don't It ?"

Turbo, not to labour the point, because Im sure its of no interest to anyone else. Ive enjoyed debating with you, and I was careful to say that "on this occasion" you were a flaming ass.

Ive aplogised to you to the extent that Ive misrepresented or wrongly implied your beliefs, specifically that you believe in eternal life.

To avoid further confusion, Ive simply asked that you state whether or not you do beleive in eternal life.

Seems simple enough, but you seem to be going to some lengths to avoid making a statement one way or the other.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by stuartj
.......edit.....Seems simple enough, but you seem to be going to some lengths to avoid making a statement one way or the other.

You are correct. Your question is not germane to the question posed by the thread, "the God Poll".

You might just as well ask, "do I like Dunlop tires"? That question would just as valuable in this context.

I will repeat, you don't have to believe in religious concepts to believe in God. Get it?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by 72doug2,2S

We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that p;
Therefore
p is true.

Isn't that essentially the logical distillation of belief in a higher power?

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
Get it?

Yes, I get it.

If I misrepresented your beliefs, and you dont believe in eternal life, my apology stands.

If you do, there was no basis for your earlier rant. A gentleman would apologise.

[Turbo_pro]

No you don't get it. My earlier rant was about the way you demeaned believers by lying about your belief in fairies.

You only said you believed in fairies to minimize and reticule some ones belief in God.

Although I would not condemn your actual believe in fairies, I do criticize the disdain you show towards those with an actual belief. That's what my rant was about and for that I will not apologize.

[kang]

Might I interrupt you guys for a moment and actually talk about the poll? Sorry…


As I write this, 35% of the poll respondents say there is no god. I find this very interesting. If I recall correctly, something like 15% (depending on the source) of the general US population are atheists. 35% is a very high number. I wonder why this is? Perhaps it is because PPOT posters are smarter than average? Remember, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. In Europe, the number of atheists is substantially higher than the US. Perhaps we have a high representation from Europe?

Only 44% are certain there is a god, which is darn close to the 35% that say there is no god. And if you add the 35% to the 12% who say there is only some entity greater than us, you have 47% who do not believe in the standard, personal Christian god. This is way higher than the general population.

Thoughts?

[72doug2,2S]

Originally posted by kang
Might I interrupt you guys for a moment and actually talk about the poll? Sorry…


As I write this, 35% of the poll respondents say there is no god. I find this very interesting. If I recall correctly, something like 15% (depending on the source) of the general US population are atheists. 35% is a very high number. I wonder why this is? Perhaps it is because PPOT posters are smarter than average? Remember, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. In Europe, the number of atheists is substantially higher than the US. Perhaps we have a high representation from Europe?

Only 44% are certain there is a god, which is darn close to the 35% that say there is no god. And if you add the 35% to the 12% who say there is only some entity greater than us, you have 47% who do not believe in the standard, personal Christian god. This is way higher than the general population.

Thoughts?

I think it has something to do with the fact that there is no choice for all the agnostics.

It really has nothing to do with intelligence, but you know the rest of the story...

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by kang
As I write this, 35% of the poll respondents say there is no god. I find this very interesting. If I recall correctly, something like 15% (depending on the source) of the general US population are atheists. 35% is a very high number. I wonder why this is? Perhaps it is because PPOT posters are smarter than average? Remember, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. In Europe, the number of atheists is substantially higher than the US. Perhaps we have a high representation from Europe?

Thoughts?

And on the other hand...

Originally posted by snowman
Luitzen Egbertus Jan Brouwer, the Hiltons, The Underhills, The Townsends, The Hoffmans, The Frosts are all blood relatives, very close ones. THeir history is published in various places. their intellect, far superior, to most college professors. Most have graduated from Harvard, Julliard, Yale and the like. Many have extreem IQs. Most beleive in God. I challange you to find higher intellects, anywhere in the world. God is not a myth, but part of our nature, a fact. Like it or not.

Intellectually, I can't find a weaker argument then "all of these smart people agree with me" -- from either side. Am I the only person who found both of these posts silly??? They don't seem to demonstrate anything to me aside from the inability of the poster to think and reason on their own, and reach a conclusion separately from the crowd of lemmings around them.

[kang]

John,

There is a huge difference between the Wiki article I linked to, documenting many valid studies showing the inverse correlation, and snowman’s unverified claim that his family is really smart and believes in god.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by kang
John,

There is a huge difference between the Wiki article I linked to, documenting many valid studies showing the inverse correlation, and snowman’s unverified claim that his family is really smart and believes in god.

No difference. To try to equate spirituality with intelligence is ridiculous on so many levels.

Spiritual interpretation of life's experience crosses all socio-economic and intellectual boundaries.
To claim differently by statistics shows a bias to a predetermined result.

"I'm right because you're stupid" is an assertion that is condisending, childish and unproveable no matter how smart you think you are.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro

Spiritual interpretation of life's experience crosses all socio-economic and intellectual boundaries.
To claim differently by statistics shows a bias to a predetermined result.

Why?