America is Lost - Page 2

tabs · 07-03-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LubeMaster77

The majority are very content in Happy Valley and really do not want to go to the mount...

To sum up todays crop of Americans don't want to sacrafice anything..They want perpetual good times...and are distracted by the Bread (Consumerism) and Circus (Media events...ESPN) which tells them they can have it all. However the race to keep ahead of the Jones is becoming unsustaineable. So to an extent the next group to be anointed as the Fatted Calf is all being groomed across the seas.

tabs · 07-03-2007, 12:39 PM

I would argue that the wealth and power America had during the 50s and 60s was unsutainable an abhoration if you will, because of the postwar rise of foreign competition.

In that time the American people began to think (were told) that they were entitled to being 1st in the world without having to sacrafice (Americans can have a Guns and Butter society without cost).

These are not new ideas for me, I first saw this back in 1980, it has just become as obvious as having an elephant in the room. Like I said if AL Gore notices it..a deaf, dumb and blind man could figure it out.

mjshira · 07-03-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
TABS - you can only be lost when you are some place that you don't want to be and do not know your way out to get back home. Americans know where they are and where they want to be, the problem is they just don't want to walk that far to get to that place. It is in plain sight like a great mountain that looks like you can touch it if you really stretched. Problem is, that great mountain is further away than you think. Always insight yet would take effort to get there.

We take movies and write books about this mountain. Some folks tell us how great the mountain is while others see that mountain and relize that it is just work to get there and more work to climb it to get to the summit.

The majority are very content in Happy Valley and really do not want to go to the mount...

the problem is that the "valley" won't be as prosperous and safe as it has always been if we create more dis-incentive for people to climb the "mountain".

Example = movement of IPO market to UK due to Sarbanes-Oxley, movement of business out of Cali due to excessive regulation, social benefits drawing people into the country, etc.

There are always those who are willing to strive to get the next level of success, the question is, do we want them here or do we want to push them elsewhere? Having lived in Europe, I can share with some accuracy that the incentives of workers to 'excel' are muted by the protection offered those that do not wish to.

There is a price to be paid for this...

tabs · 07-03-2007, 01:21 PM

Since LBJs Great Society, America has tried not to leave anyone behind. However if U look at the IQ Bell Curve for example, not everyone is college material. Some people are not going to make it. What Americas promise really has offered is that everyone according to their ability has an equal opportunity.

Mo_Gearhead · 07-03-2007, 03:36 PM

*America is Lost*

Not sure where the original poster lives?

For many of us that live in the USA, with all its "flaws" we would not change places with ANY of you, wherever you are.

We go through varied political changes, get judges appointed to the Supreme Court we don't care for, see injustice in society at times and we do what we can to fix it (ie: voting, volunteering, giving to charities, etc.).

I have traveled to other countries, (read even more about them) and if I thought there was a better place to live on this planet ...
I would be doing my best to GET THERE!!! (Haven't found it.)
Seems many people are trying to do just that in coming to the U.S.A. How odd???

So all these posts from 'outsiders', railing about how terrible the U.S.A. is, are irrelevant to us and mostly border on pure ...jealousy.

mjshira · 07-03-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tabs
Since LBJs Great Society, America has tried not to leave anyone behind. However if U look at the IQ Bell Curve for example, not everyone is college material. Some people are not going to make it. What Americas promise really has offered is that everyone according to their ability has an equal opportunity.

what people are trying to change "equal opportunity" into is "equality of result". That is what we need to protect ourselves against.

I was a HS drop out... until I decided that I wanted to accomplish more, I didn't. My parents never allowed me to 'blame others' for my failures so once I finally realized I had the power within me, success started. For me success was being able to just afford to go to school. I still define my success myself, rather than allowing what others have or accomplish define my success.

It all seems so simple to me that I struggle with why others 'dont' get it' re: personal responsiblity.

M.D. Holloway · 07-03-2007, 09:14 PM

All our problems will be solved when Hillary takes the office.
She will institute a national healthcare system, bring peace to the middleeast, have 20 million illegals legal, have all kids age 4 and up being able to read and write and add and subtract, stabilize the oil prices and reduce the effects of global warming all during her first term.

Ah yes, life will be good and all the countries will love us and we will help out all those that really need it. The rich will give more, the poor take more and before you know it we will all be a very lovely shade of beige...

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

If I had to summarize life in America in a single word, it would be "unsustainable". One need only look at our rates of consumption, production, etc.

It's not the same country I was born into - and certainly not for the better. I still love this country, but I analogize it to the Roman Empire after its peak - largely run by inefficiency, corruption and bureaucratic do-nothings with no vision and delusions of self-importance. As with Rome, America indulges in its own vices and hedonism while invading hordes mass on our borders.

Our fall will be a death from a thousand cuts - within AND without. We are rotting our nation from the inside with apathy and "more of the same" politics, compromising our ideals, liberty and founding principles for "security". We expect never-ending prosperity (look at the recent stupidity of the real-estate market) and freely sell out our childrens' futures to greedy institutions all-too-willing to offer us short-term gain. Critical thinking and long-term thinking and the ability to be discriminate is gone.

I used to think America would be the nation to last a thousand years. As things stand now, I seriously doubt we'll make 300.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
If I had to summarize life in America in a single word, it would be "unsustainable". One need only look at our rates of consumption, production, etc.

It's not the same country I was born into - and certainly not for the better. I still love this country, but I analogize it to the Roman Empire after its peak - largely run by inefficiency, corruption and bureaucratic do-nothings with no vision and delusions of self-importance. As with Rome, America indulges in its own vices and hedonism while invading hordes mass on our borders.

Our fall will be a death from a thousand cuts - within AND without. We are rotting our nation from the inside with apathy and "more of the same" politics, compromising our ideals, liberty and founding principles for "security". We expect never-ending prosperity (look at the recent stupidity of the real-estate market) and freely sell out our childrens' futures to greedy institutions all-too-willing to offer us short-term gain. Critical thinking and long-term thinking and the ability to be discriminate is gone.

I used to think America would be the nation to last a thousand years. As things stand now, I seriously doubt we'll make 300.

you can't be serious.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Why not?

Completely serious.

America is more divided than ever. The founding principles that made this such a remarkable country are all but gone. We're little better today than many dozens of other nations that have failed and gone the way of the dodo. But that is the cyclical nature of things:

Tyrrany begets anger. Anger begets motivation. Motivation begets revolution. Revolution begets idealism. Idealism begets action. Action begets innovation. Innovation begets prosperity. Prosperity begets complacency. Complacency begets apathy. Apathy begets tyrrany.

I think we're at about 9 or 10 on that list (either "complacency begetting apathy" or "apathy begetting tyrrany"). What makes you think we're immune to a pattern we've seen repeated over and over and over throughout history and the world? Oh, that's right, "this time's different". Right.

Our "leaders" don't lead, our "representatives" don't represent and the will of the people be damned. Unsustainable. Formula for eventual governmental collapse.

I love this country - or more specifically the ideals on which it was founded. I see very little today to make me "proud to be 'merican". I hope for change but fear it will not ever come. I'm not completely willing to write off America yet, but it's sure going that way.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 06:15 AM

I respect your view. It just troubles me to hear the negativity in it. I hear a lot of people who voice your view these days so you are not alone in holding it. What troubles me I guess is that when I look at other nations I see even more problems, etc.

I hope you find something in today's purpose and experience that lifts your spirit a bit. There is nothing worse that being down and not feeling like you can do anything about it. Hang in there.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Thanks, sorry to be a downer but it just bugs me when the day to celebrate our independence is equated to a mindless chest-beating session about pseudo-patriotism by so many people. Certainly not directed at you or even anyone here in particular, but that's what it seems to mean to far too many out there - very few (by comparison) spend any time thinking about the true meaning of words like "liberty", "freedom", "democracy" or "representation". I wish they did - this would be a great day to do it.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 06:32 AM

just remember that there are plenty of folks on both sides (left and right) who have done wrong while in power. the fact is that we are reaping what we've have planted e.g. if a purality of folks don't give a ***** (as is demonstrated by how many don't vote...) we end up with a gov't of extremes, extreme from either side. I personally think our system works best when one party has one branch and the other has the other branch of gov't.

I think a lot more people care than you know, I just think they are not engaged because they don't see leadership that engages them.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 06:33 AM

and yes I know there are the courts too, I just 'like to dream' that they are not as political as the other two branches...

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

I agree with you 100% on that - when the political power is split (one party has the legislative, another has the executive), they spend all their time fighting each other and less time screwing things up for the rest of us. Fine by me. The less government does (in its current form), the better off everyone is.

Sad, it shouldn't be that way. There's no provision whatsoever for political parties in the Constitution and if you cut to the heart of it, the rise of "political machines" and parties in this country coincided with the creation of many of the problems that exist today, which have the potential to destroy this country. Abolishing political parties and other forms of collusion among politicians would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Another would be LIFETIME limits on TOTAL government service (including any/all local, state or federal appointments to elected offices). No more career politicians. Make it 10-15 years MAX. that a person can hold any elected office or combination of them. The price of "experience" so lost would be far less than the penalty of the current "good-old-boy-network" or corruption.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 06:43 AM

the only reason we only have two parties is us.. and our lack of interest in the process. if we cared more, it would be different. with respect to your comment on gov't doing less and that being ok based on just the current gov't, I would only add that it is always better the less that ANY gov't does. For example with respect to this current debate about immigration, we already have laws that have been made regarding this but nobody has the stomach to manage the system to these standards. Then we are told we need more laws...

Dottore · 07-04-2007, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Why not?

But that is the cyclical nature of things:

Tyrrany begets anger. Anger begets motivation. Motivation begets revolution. Revolution begets idealism. Idealism begets action. Action begets innovation. Innovation begets prosperity. Prosperity begets complacency. Complacency begets apathy. Apathy begets tyrrany.

I think we're at about 9 or 10 on that list (either "complacency begetting apathy" or "apathy begetting tyrrany").

Nice list. But I would have put things at somewhere between 1 and 2 on that list.

Moneyguy1 · 07-04-2007, 07:36 AM

Society, in some ways, acts like a pendulum. Things get out of skew and reach a certain point where the majority finally realizes something is amiss. The factor that exists now that hasn't existed before (in my opinion) is the instant communications today that allows everyone to "speak their piece", giving the country a multiple of voices, anonmynity, no (or little) individual responsibility, and individual isolation. However, that too may be a blip on the screen, fading like so many things over a few decades.

I have a great amount of faith in the common man. Patience is only so elastic and I see an excellent chance that things will change, but it will take the people to realize that extreme partisanism is destructive, and that the desire to always be right will take us down. Tolerance, a move to minimize the opiners who exude hate are required.

mjshira · 07-04-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Society, in some ways, acts like a pendulum. Things get out of skew and reach a certain point where the majority finally realizes something is amiss. The factor that exists now that hasn't existed before (in my opinion) is the instant communications today that allows everyone to "speak their piece", giving the country a multiple of voices, anonmynity, no (or little) individual responsibility, and individual isolation. However, that too may be a blip on the screen, fading like so many things over a few decades.

I have a great amount of faith in the common man. Patience is only so elastic and I see an excellent chance that things will change, but it will take the people to realize that extreme partisanism is destructive, and that the desire to always be right will take us down. Tolerance, a move to minimize the opiners who exude hate are required.

sign me up for all of what you said - I only qualify it with the following - virtues and principles shouldn't be compromised. The concept of limited gov't power is key to the foundation of our nation, if we don't fight for it, it won't remain. The more people who come here in search of social benefits, the more we allow people who are alreay here to 'transfer responsibility' to gov't, the more we feel we need to be responsible for every global problem, the sooner we will test the limits of our system and resources.

regardless of what side of the spectrum you are on, you can't escape the logic of personal freedom = personal responsibility.

so it follows that, less personal responsibility = less personal freedom.

that is what should scare all of us. the more we want to ignore it, the more an issue it becomes.

Moneyguy1 · 07-04-2007, 08:49 AM

Both sides of the argument seek services from their government that, in the long run are unsustainable. One extreme wants the government to act as "the great provider", while the other extreme wants the government to, through inaction, permit unfettered private enterprise without controls. Both can take down a system over time. Somewhere there must be a balance and society has to recognize this fact and accept some kind of middle ground. There are certain things that government is better at such as defense, firefighting, crimefighting, and even some social types of programs. Only because in many of these instances the individual could not afford to provide these services to themselves and so they "band together" through government to provide these services. Government, for these services, should act as a "collective", or mutual aid (like many insurance companies) but be regulated in the sense that ancellary services are controlled and expansion limited. Therefore, oversight is required. If that oversight is left to government, it is similar to the fox guarding the henhouse. The people must supply that oversight in order to maintain a sustainable form of government at all levels.