P-51

[GO DAWG GO]

Trader220,

Well, It was known as "Whistling Death" by the Japanese. The hose nose by Navy Pilots and was refered to as the Sweetheart of Okinawa by many. The F4U-1 thru -9 and the F2-G were variants and numerically reflect typical maturity. The basic airframe designed by Voight Aircraft was designed to be fast and rubust. The Pratt and Whitney R-2800-x Variants were VERY powerful radial engines and reliable. 2200 HP plus as they matured also. The noticeable attribute was the "Iinverted Gull Wing" which was design to limit the moment arm of the landing gear. The reason was the Hamilton Standard hydromatic propeller diameter of over 13 feet. Designers brought the wing closer to the ground. I wonder if MFAFF is going to agree? Capable of over 400 MPH which really depends on density altitude. What I mean is the pacific saw dog fighting at a much lower altitude than in Europe. Engine torque, manueverability and tactics would get you back to base.

In summation: the F-4U Corsair was a great aircraft used through out the Pacific in the Island Hopping Campaign. Originally designated to Marine Corp squadrons and then flown off carriers.

I believe the name "Hose Nose" was coined by the Navy Pilots. It was faster that the A6M Zero and carried armour . The platform was very capable as long as pilots used the dogfitgting tactics that Pappy Boyington and Ray Blackburn had developed. Deflection shoot and dont try to turn with the Zero. All In all a great plane and was know to score the first air to air victory over a Mig 15 In Korea.....Also I believe it was the first to drop Napalm.

The F-2G was a Corsair variant redesigned to incorporate the Pratt and Whitney R-4360 (28 cylinder) corncobb motor over 3000 HP. I understand it was developed to counter Kamakazi threats, but too late to see action along with the F-8F Bearcat.

Great aircraft but not used in the European Theatre or Operation (ETO) that why it wasnt mentioned earlier....

Thanks .. OK MFAFF...Dont argue for the sake of arguing... Have at it .I can defend my Rhetoric...

Bob

[MFAFF]

Bob,

Lets really get provocative....What was the best ever piston engined fighter....now not necessarily one that saw action.. or entered production, but flew.....one which took all of the experience gaine dand combined the best features of them all...

The Bearcat? The Super Corsair.... the P-51H....the Spitfire Mk22?
Sea Fury? MB5?

Of these I'd argue that the MB5 was the most advanced, if was a generation ahead of the Spitfire/Seafire Mk22/24...so far more suited to its Griffon powerplant..

Imagine it if you will a Griffon engined Mustang.....

The Bearcat presents a might strong case....

[t6dpilot]

Hey, what about the P-40? I am starting to feel a little slighted here.

[GO DAWG GO]

MFAFF,

Thats a good Idea. But to be fair..We need to establish the "mission". Flying 1500 miles escorting B-29's or defending the homeland...Makes all the difference. Vickers Supermarine Mark 24 is the killer elite as a homeland based defender. But not suited for a Berlin sortie... So we need to be careful...This could be fun..Anyone chime in after we pick the mission. State the aircraft and why!

MFAFF..Lets name the "Mission"...Be somewhat creative You could even mod your bird slightly also. Just like we did during the war.. This can include anything in production before and as late as 1945. So aircraft like the Sea Fury wouldnt be included ....Is this fair?

Bob

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

Hey, what about the P-40? I am starting to feel a little slighted here.

Its back there with the P-39. Its lack of high altitude fighting ability is what hurt the P-40. The later models with a Merlin engine were much better but by that time there were newer airplanes that could do more.

Reason why it has a place in history is that it was available, and in descent numbers, when needed. It was a good airplane in the Pacific theatre early in the war (Flying Tigers) but the ME-109 would have eaten them alive in the European war.

Still a very nice looking bird.



They will always have a place in history because of these men:

[MFAFF]

Oh boy..what fun..

T6.. no offence to the P40, but it was introduced at a time when the rate of development was so fast that it quite quickly lost the lead.

And due to its basic design, at the time quite advanced, it did not offer the potential of other airframes...the front mounted rad really hindered it.

But we have to acknowledge its widespread use and ability and it robustness...a plane that can actually fly is always better than one which cannot due to maintenace or damage (esp the North African campaign).

Bob,

I think we could spend a lot of time definiting 'a' mission, so can we have two generic ones.. the first being a defensive fighter, one designed to operate in an 'interceptor role' design primarily to close to its own base, aimed at destriying bombers etc etc...
This would aim to keep the Bearcat, later Mk Spits etc in the frame..

The other is a longer range escort fighter/ or strike fighter...this focuses on the Mustang/ P-47, 190D and so forth...

But excluding the Sea Fury is a bit much....
It was good but was it such a step forward?......is it really that much better than the P-51?

[trader220]

THanks I appreciate the lesson guys... what a wealth of knowledge on many topics this board is.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Argue about the best, the most advanced....but that is the most elegant machine ever concieved. There just is no bad angle, IMHO.

[MFAFF]

Stuart,

Believe me when you are lying on your back on a cold hangar floor with a face full of 100LL trying to get that damn oil streak off the underside.....















She looks like a pig...













but a beautiful one at that..

[GO DAWG GO]

There are some typos. I did this quickly to strawman the requirements and delineate the advantages in speed and maneuverability. These aircraft are chosen only as a interceptor. MFAFF. I didn't get into anything real deep but that will be next. I just wanted to nail down a few and then we could hash out the best.






Point out some of your picks and lets talk "In process Selection and developmental constraints "Strengths and weaknesses".

Reliability is a major issue so I stayed away from some of the speedier jet and rocket aircraft because of practicality. I would want a these defending my homeland. OK as a last ditch effort to thwart the total loss of a war, but not real effective. You get my drift!

[Jim Bremner]

p-38 not fast enough?

[GO DAWG GO]

Jim,

It was quick, but not enough to hang with the big boys. The P-38 had Allison 1710 engines which died at altitude above 12 thousand feet. There was variants that had Merlins which would be better suited but the plane is big and not as nimble as a Bearcat, spitz or Mustang...This is just my opinion. State your case if you think it should be there and why. Again it would play a better roll as a attack/escort/Pacific against the Japanese aircraft.

My .02 cents

Bob

[MFAFF]

Bob..

Good stuff... very impressive...

Add the Yak 9 to the mix and lets see....

I'd start with the US pair and from what I know the Bearcat would be more suited to the interceptor role...merely because it was a more powerful and lighter a/c....It also think it was designed with that in mind....(could have added the P-51H!)

The P-51D gets second bite in the long range escort role....

The I'd put the Spit against the Dora....very tough, I'd suspect that the shear power of the Griffon would provide and overall performance edge, but I'm not certain the handling was as carefree as the Dora....The 190 was a generation ahead aerodynamically....and with its wider track undercarriage it makes living with it a whole bunch easier....no go having the best plane if you guys roll it into a ball coming home.

This might pitch it the Dora's way...I'm afraid...

So we have the Dora and the Bearcat...along with the Yak 9... Having seen it fly at Duxford and hearing Ray Hanna rave about it...from the man who had flown so many of its competitors......it has to be a contender.

Certainly its display performance was as impressive as any I have seen... including Bearcats, Tigercats, Sea Furies, Spits and Seafires....109s, Corsairs, P-38s etc etc....

From those three.....hmmmm.....

Not certain how to go about it...as far as I know no single person flew all three so pilot reports are going to be tough. I'm not sure of how to rationally come to a supportable conclusion...

The Bearcat was designed more as an pure fighter...based on a very powerful evolutionary line of Naval fighters, so the designers knew a thing or two about designing fighters.... but then so did the Kurt Tank and Yakolev....

The Dora is an evolution of an earlier a/c.. a very good one but not necessarily good enough in this company... leaving the Yak 9 as the direct competitor. Again based on very successful series it was nonetheless a new design with a very powerful engine, very well balanced controls and very powerful ones as well...

Would it give the Bear a run for its money? very likely...

From there to declare a winner................

I'd say its impossible as we know too little about the 9 and are too familar with the Bear...... of course the fact its one of my favourites means nothing at all...

[kach22i]

Yak-9 paper cutout, they suggest printing it on card stock.

http://www.juniorgeneral.org/donated/john/Yak-9.GIF

More:
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/ww2.htm

They still make them?
http://www.russianaeros.com/yak9product.htm

19 Aircraft have already been completed and sold.

[kach22i]

Where would this one be in the line up had it seen action?

Pusher Prop Kyushu J7W1 Shinden
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/kyushu-j7w1-shinden-canard-prototype-4615.html






http://members.aol.com/pelzig/shinden.html

Had the Shinden made it into service, it had the potential to be a very potent fighting platform in the right hands. It had a very ample top speed which was more than enough to make it competitive with, if not faster than, its rivals. The armament was very powerful given it was designed to battle the heavily armed Boeing B-29 "Superfortresses" and the agility and dogfighting capacity of the Shinden certainly cannot be ignored or overlooked. The problem would have been in the availability of skilled pilots able to master this new aircraft for it was a radical departure from the typical Japanese aircraft design. Also, it was not to be expected that the Shinden would have seen service in 1945 given the development time and the time needed to finalize and remove problems borne out in the prototypes. By this time, the Allies might have fielded more potent aircraft to battle any new machines the Japanese managed to get into the air.

http://members.aol.com/pelzig/tables/shinden_table.html
Maximum speed 466mph at 28,545ft.

[kach22i]

I guess if prototypes were to be coinsidered, my favorite:


Horten Ho IX
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/baugher.html


I have a plastic model of this and the bomber.

[Les Paul]

Summer of 78 CAF dare I say Confederate Air Force HQ Harligen Tx. My wife and a 2 for one. The last flying F-82 at the time. It later crashed and was being restored in Midland Tx the new version of the CAF probably 15 years ago. I don't know if they ever got it going or not.



And the Fabulous Thunderbird

[Les Paul]

Sorry about the shorts it was back in the 70's though.

[steve185]

In June I was walking to the Canadian Aviation Museum, I heard the unmistakable sound of a Merlin. Coming in right over me with the gear down. Luckily I had a camera with me. They have fly ins on most Sundays in the summer.
Here are the pics.

[rrpjr]

What an enjoyable thread. Having no military history knowledge whatsoever I can only make the ersatz contribution of citing the wonderful scene in “Empire of the Sun” when young Christian Bale as the British captive in the Japanese POW camp runs along the rooftop hailing the strafing Americans in their P-51s – ”the Cadillac of the sky!”. But was this authentic?