P-51

[GO DAWG GO]

Steve185,

I like the Hawker Typhoon an Tempest (very similar in appearance) The Typhoon used the Rolls Royce Griffin engine the Tempest did also. The Bristol Centaurus (Sleeved Radial- No Valve) was used in the Hawker Sea Fury..Dennis Sanders flies one out of Chino. The Tempest and Typhoon were no match in a dogfight with any front line German Fighter they were big and heavy and were used for ground attack and shipping. That engine in the picture is not what was used in any High production British fighter. The Rolls Royce Merlin and griffin look the same except the Griffin is the Big Block! Avro Lancasters used the Griffin also.

I have worked on most of these engines and would agree that the P-51 with the (Trade studies) also a very esoteric airfoil and very clean aerodynamically is on the top as a fighter, It carried twice the fuel after adding the tank in the empenage than any other fighter. The Spits was great but had no range. The mustang was faster and had the range. Drop 5% degrees of flap and it would turn with anything in the sky. Strip one and place it above the formation of bombers and it would keep up with a ME-262 back to base and shoot it up landing..

Most of my info is from talking to the vets and reading every book I could get.

P.S. the Grumman F-8F Bearcat is a bad boy and probably could kill anything in the air in 1945...Fast and could turn.

Airplane to car comparison

P-51 is a Z06 Corvette
P-47 is a Dodge Viper
F-8F is a 930 Turbo
FW-190 is 964
BF-109 is 911s
A6M5 Zero is a MR2
Hawker Typhoon is a Humvee

Just being silly..

Bob

[Aerkuld]

I don't think the Lancaster ever had Griffin engines did it? Are you confusing it with the later Avro Shackleton?

[GO DAWG GO]

Aerkuld,

Yep they were Merlins. For some reason I thought they had a variation of the Lancaster with Griffins to carry the 20K lb. loads, Wallis bombs..Dam Busters. Thanks for the correction. I generally know what I'm talking about! I do believe the rest of my rhetoric is reasonable..

If I were to dogfight I would fly a P-51. If I were straffing trains I would fly a Jug (P-47) No question about it. In the Pacific the Bearcat would beat um hand down...

Thanks

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by robert_snyder

Steve185,

I like the Hawker Typhoon an Tempest (very similar in appearance) The Typhoon used the Rolls Royce Griffin engine the Tempest did also. The Bristol Centaurus (Sleeved Radial- No Valve) was used in the Hawker Sea Fury..Dennis Sanders flies one out of Chino. The Tempest and Typhoon were no match in a dogfight with any front line German Fighter they were big and heavy and were used for ground attack and shipping. That engine in the picture is not what was used in any High production British fighter. The Rolls Royce Merlin and griffin look the same except the Griffin is the Big Block! Avro Lancasters used the Griffin also.

I have worked on most of these engines and would agree that the P-51 with the (Trade studies) also a very esoteric airfoil and very clean aerodynamically is on the top as a fighter, It carried twice the fuel after adding the tank in the empenage than any other fighter. The Spits was great but had no range. The mustang was faster and had the range. Drop 5% degrees of flap and it would turn with anything in the sky. Strip one and place it above the formation of bombers and it would keep up with a ME-262 back to base and shoot it up landing..

Most of my info is from talking to the vets and reading every book I could get.

P.S. the Grumman F-8F Bearcat is a bad boy and probably could kill anything in the air in 1945...Fast and could turn.

Airplane to car comparison

P-51 is a Z06 Corvette
P-47 is a Dodge Viper
F-8F is a 930 Turbo
FW-190 is 964
BF-109 is 911s
A6M5 Zero is a MR2
Hawker Typhoon is a Humvee

Just being silly..

Bob

Opps...I better go and tell the guys restoring the Tempest to install the Merlin instead of the correct Sabre engine...

Both Tyhoon and Tempest were Sabre engined as production items.... Centaurus engines (Tornados) were tried, as were Griffon engined Tempests III and IV which were projects only...

Furys and Sea Furys are radial powered.

Lets also not forget that the Mustang is was the product of an RAF spec and was only successful when a Merlin was installed...and the USAFF had no time for it initially, only adopting it as a fighter ( the A-36 Apache ground attack version was already in service) when the P-38 proved unsuited to European ops and the P-47 was outclassed by the new German a/c...

Joe...no 190s are currently flying...there is an original in Seattle that Paul Allen has recently acquired and will probably re-certifiy for flight (its been restored to flight worthy condition). There are a few (5) new build 190s around.. one of which is at Duxford...see photo. Its not certified to fly in the UK but ARC have re assembled it and taxied it....This series uses a Russian radial rather than the original BMW units..

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Les Paul

My dad was a pilot. Every month he got a yellow newspaper like publication called Trade a Plane. I used to go through every add looking for WWII aircraft. In the late 60's I recall seeing a restored Spitfire for 10K, there was some outfit in Florida that did 2 place conversions on P-51's. 35K. I used to beg my dad to get one. Even as a teenager I knew they were going to only go up in price. Every couple of months there would be a Bearcat, Sea Fury, you name they were posted. Of course I just knew when I turned 16 there would be either an XKE or 911S in our driveway. Aim high shoot low.

You mean like this:

[steve185]

Hi Rob
Merlins were used in Lancasters, the Sabre engine in the picture is from a Tempest, here is another pic of a Sabre engine I took at the Canadian Aviation Museum. From what I have read our soldiers on the gound in Europe liked the Tempests and Typhoons as they fired rockets and could do a lot of damage.
Steve

[CRH911S]

Joe, what was that fighter we used in the Pacific that had the engine in the rear and the propeller shaft ran between the pilots legs? I remember hearing it was a pretty good fighter but had heating problems if it sat on the taxi way too long.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

This is a rare photo, and never published that I know of on the internet. The pilot on the left is a friend of mine, a FW-190 pilot. Rest of the story is private but this was taken in 1944 "on duty" so to speak. The -190 was not called the "Butcher Bird" for nothing. It was a very good fighter for its time.

Not to be pedantic - but the FW-190 was never called the "butcher bird". It was, in German, referred to as the "Schlachtvogel" - which correctly translates as "battle bird".

(Although a "schlachter" is a butcher in English - "schlacht" here means battle. A "butcherbird" would be "schlachtervogel" in German - which makes little sense.)

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by CRH911S

Joe, what was that fighter we used in the Pacific that had the engine in the rear and the propeller shaft ran between the pilots legs? I remember hearing it was a pretty good fighter but had heating problems if it sat on the taxi way too long.

The P39 "Aircobra" was an early design that just did not work very well as a fighter. It indeed did have overheating issues if it could not get airborne quickly and was not nimble.

It was very good at one thing, and that was tank busting. The cannot barrel that you can see sticking out of the nose did a very good job at dispatching tanks, so we sent a whole bunch to the Russians, who used them for many years.





MFAFF,

A friend of mine is the person restoring the FW-190 you are talking about. BTW, its not in Seattle but will be when completed. Cannot say anymore about it as its confidental as per the owner.

Thought that the five "nachbau" (new build) FW-190's were all flying. Sorry to see the one in the UK down.

The other one that is up and coming is the "White One" FW-190. That is the one that was flown by my friend, Heinz Orlowski. He was one of the fighters flying CAP to protect the Tirpiz, the German Battleship that was sunk by the RAF in Norway late in the war.

http://www.white1foundation.org/white1_history2.htm

~~~~~~

A single Mustang tried to help out, and attacked the German fighter. A long aerial duel developed. The Mustang finally caught fire, and made a wide turn out the fjord. Perhaps he will try to get away and make a crash landing. But then the british pilot turned back. According to eyewitnesses the pilot must have been badly wounded,but instead of bailing out he continued the fight. But to no avail. The Mustang crashed in the green pine forrest being the only Mustang loss of this battle. W/O Cecil Claude Caesar was dead.

The German fighter was in trouble also. The engine had been damaged and this forced the pilot to bail out. A small charge dispensed with the canopy and a small figure detatched itself from the plane. But he was too close to the ground for the chute to open. Fortunately, the snowy hillside enabled the pilot to survive, a small avalanche carried him to the bottom of the valley. During the journy down, the flare gun accidentily went off, causing severe burns on one leg. Still, he can walk, and he found his way into a small barn. After a little while some Norwegians contacted him and made sure he got to hospital. This pilot was Heinz Orlowski. He spent the rest of the war in hospital and reconvalenced at Herdla, and did not see further combat. In 1994 he and his newly-restored "Weisse 1" was actually reunited in Texas, survivors of a fierce battle some 49 years before.

~~~~~~

Here is Heinz in Berlin last December.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Not to be pedantic - but the FW-190 was never called the "butcher bird". It was, in German, referred to as the "Schlachtvogel" - which correctly translates as "battle bird".

(Although a "schlachter" is a butcher in English - "schlacht" here means battle. A "butcherbird" would be "schlachtervogel" in German - which makes little sense.)

First off, I know several ex-WW2 FW-190 pilots and they all said that it was called the Butcher Bird. The gent pictured above still calls it that but not until asked about it.

~~~~~

Here is how it got that name, from the first test pilot to fly the plane.

* The "FW-190-V1" (V1 meaning "Versuchs 1 / Prototype 1") flew from the Bremen airport on 1 June 1939 with test pilot Hans Sander at the controls. Tank himself, a skilled pilot and definitely a "hands-on" engineer, performed some of the test flights. He gave the machine the name "Wuerger (Butcher Bird / Shrike)". Early test flights demonstrated some problems, including leakage of carbon monoxide fumes into the cockpit; failure of the landing gear to lock in place after being raised; and engine and cockpit overheating. The first two problems were quickly resolved, but the overheating troubles proved harder to fix.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avfw190.html

~~~~~

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200010/ai_n8925541

http://www.warbirdalley.com/fw190.htm

http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html

http://www.nitroplanes.com/fofw19070bub.html

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59764&sid=278cf738b782b0e271e2ef49a06a67f5

http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Russian-Front-Osprey-Aircraft/dp/1855325187

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fw_190

[Dottore]

Interesting Joe:

I grew up in Germany and my father did a brief stint in the Luftwaffe before the war ended. I often heard the FW 109 referred to as "schlachtvogel".

I think the confusion arises because the factory designation was "wuerger" which translates as "shrike" in English. In English a "butcherbird" is apparently a type of shrike - and the allies apparently started to call the FW 109 "butcherbird" - which I gather then gained currency in Germany as "schlachtvogel" - although the ordinary meaning is rather different.

Reminds me of Kennedy's famous words "Ich bin ein Berliner" which many Germans understood as "I am a donut".

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Interesting Joe:

I grew up in Germany and my father did a brief stint in the Luftwaffe before the war ended. I often heard the FW 109 referred to as "schlachtvogel".

I think the confusion arises because the factory designation was "wuerger" which translates as "shrike" in English. In English a "butcherbird" is apparently a type of shrike - and the allies apparently started to call the FW 109 "butcherbird" - which I gather then gained currency in Germany as "schlachtvogel" - although the ordinary meaning is rather different.

Reminds me of Kennedy's famous words "Ich bin ein Berliner" which many Germans understood as "I am a donut".

Know what you mean. We also laughed about the "Berliner" comment but everyone knew what he meant. Many of the words in German have several meanings.

If Kurt Tank, who designed the FW-190 called it a butcher bird, then guess we might as well do the same.

[tabs]

Who cares what it was called it shot down alot of Allied aircraft.

[GO DAWG GO]

"Lets also not forget that the Mustang is was the product of an RAF spec and was only successful when a Merlin was installed...and the USAFF had no time for it initially, only adopting it as a fighter ( the A-36 Apache ground attack version was already in service) when the P-38 proved unsuited to European ops and the P-47 was outclassed by the new German a/c."..

MCFAFF: I better not comment about those BRITISH planes seems my info is a little erroneous. I'm going to check where I read this stuff.

But Anyway- Ready to argue about American planes

Lets get this straight...Sir Henry Self (British Purchasing Envoy) came to the US to buy Curtiss P-40's from North American Aviation. Correct? He didnt go to Curtiss. You Guys likes the AT-6 Harvard. Dutch Kindleburger and Raymong Rice President and Chief Engineer of NAA basically told the Brits they could design tool and build a better fighter in the time constraints alotted which was 120 days Correct? Mr. Self purchased 300 or 600 somewhere sight unseen. The mustang was born as the NA-73X Correct? You guys did name it "Mustang" though. "An American Wild Horse as the man said"
I do agree the aircraft truly became a great high altitude fighter after you guys stuck a Merlin in it. NAA then redesigned the engine mounts and cowling to adapt the American built Packard Merlins V1650-3 to -6 Correct? It was built for the british as a request and not a Engineering specification..Can we Agree?

So- A-36 was actually a great airplane as long as it didnt try to fight above 20K need a better blower system (Allison V1710)... Right?

P-38 was used everywhere and wasnt called the Forktoothed Devil for nothing. Dick Bong got his 40 kills in Europe and the Pacific..Not bad?

I will argue forever when you say the P-47 was outclassed by the German A/C..How is that??? The latter model P-47M (480 MPH) was fast, rugged and carried 8 fifties, HVAR rockets and recoiless rifles. It was faster than anything in the ETO except an ME-262 which could be flown for a wopping 25 minutes. Me-163 comet was faster also but not effective and probably never went head to head with a Jug or a Spitz..I am I still correct?

Anyway- Was it the Wellington with the Bridge/ truss wooden airframe with merlins also? What was the actual name of that construction.

Anyway- Tell me about this Typhoon you guys are restoring. That was always a pretty cool bird that didnt get its post war rewards. One of the unsung heros.

Got any pictures?

Bob

[MFAFF]

MCFAFF: I better not comment about those BRITISH planes seems my info is a little erroneous. I'm going to check where I read this stuff.

But Anyway- Ready to argue about American planes Absolutely.....

Lets get this straight...Sir Henry Self (British Purchasing Envoy) came to the US to buy Curtiss P-40's from North American Aviation. Correct? Yup

He didnt go to Curtiss. You Guys likes the AT-6 Harvard. Dutch Kindleburger and Raymong Rice President and Chief Engineer of NAA basically told the Brits they could design tool and build a better fighter in the time constraints alotted which was 120 days Correct?

Close but not what I understood as the brief. He was to procure an immediate order and delivery of P-40s to be followed up by a 'new fighter' which bettered the P-40 and the planned Spitfire Marks (II and IV). In the end the NAA offered to design a build the next generation so quickly it was deemed a better option. But the truth is possibly somewhere between the two as UK accounts are biased

Mr. Self purchased 300 or 600 somewhere sight unseen. The mustang was born as the NA-73X Correct? Yup

You guys did name it "Mustang" though. "An American Wild Horse as the man said"
I do agree the aircraft truly became a great high altitude fighter after you guys stuck a Merlin in it. NAA then redesigned the engine mounts and cowling to adapt the American built Packard Merlins V1650-3 to -6 Correct?

Nope... the P-51 with the original Allison engine was not an improvement over the then current MK-9 Spit. Mind you the Mk-9 was not planned when the Mustang was ordered..so its a bit rich to compare it..However the adoption of the Merlin at the 'request of the RAF', true transformed the P-51 into one of the greatest ever all round fighters. It was peerless in range and agility and damn good low down, bettered only be the Tempest/ Typhoon and P-47.

As we know the airframe and engine combo made the aircraft..as alone they were good, but together they were the best.

It was built for the british as a request and not a Engineering specification..Can we Agree? True as I have not

So- A-36 was actually a great airplane as long as it didnt try to fight above 20K need a better blower system (Allison V1710)... Right? Not according to my 'biased' contemporary pilot reports. Again it may be that the truth is not exactly as reported at the time. Mind you guys I know how have flown both recently tend to agree...but they only fly displays not combat...

P-38 was used everywhere and wasnt called the Forktoothed Devil for nothing. Dick Bong got his 40 kills in Europe and the Pacific..Not bad? Still it wasn't good enough for Europe by and large.. or shall we say its greatest strength was not fully exploited there... or how else do we consider the overwhelming preponderance of P-51/ P-47 units in Europe.....compared to the number of P-38 units in the Pacific theatre, where it was supreme.

I will argue forever when you say the P-47 was outclassed by the German A/C..How is that??? The latter model P-47M (480 MPH) was fast, rugged and carried 8 fifties, HVAR rockets and recoiless rifles. It was faster than anything in the ETO except an ME-262 which could be flown for a wopping 25 minutes. Me-163 comet was faster also but not effective and probably never went head to head with a Jug or a Spitz..I am I still correct?

Interesting... I think we need to divide up the P-47 into generations... the initial B model was found wanting in the ETO, both in range and agility compared to the contemporary 190.....certainly from the D (with its longer fuselage and additional fuel) onwards it had found is role far more than the early models. It was made even better by the bubble canopy. These changes did turn it into a real beast.. not sure it would have had an easy time against a 190D.

Anyway- Was it the Wellington with the Bridge/ truss wooden airframe with merlins also? What was the actual name of that construction. Wellington sused both Merlins and various Bristol radials, such as Pegasus and Hercules. It was built according to Barnes Wallis' geodetic design....

Anyway- Tell me about this Typhoon you guys are restoring. That was always a pretty cool bird that didnt get its post war rewards. One of the unsung heros.

Its a return to flight restoration of a 'partial' airframe. Lots of new build parts, especially panelling. Much has been sourced from the National Museums here in the UK. in return for manufacture of spares. The engine is the biggest issue. Not too many Sabres around and getting it rebuilt is a challenge.
Client is unsurprising a wealthy American, well known for his patronage of UK companies for rebuild of his UK planes....You know who he is.

Got any pictures? Sorry no...

Joe,

The 190 is not going to fly in the UK. As its going across the pond to your side the paper work was deemed excessive for a few test flights which would need to be repeated again.....so we'll not see it flying with a Mk-9 Spit over Duxford skies.

[GO DAWG GO]

MFAFF,

I think we should agree on the disagreements. I agree like you said you must understand the aircrafts role, maturity and date to accurately describe their capabilities. A MK 9 Spitz is quite impressive as most fighter matured. Actually I understand the BF-109 by all intents and purposes became less effective because of weight. It constantly gained weight for all kinds of reasons. Have you ever seen one built by CASA with the Merlin? Exhaust stacks are high as opposed to the low penetrations in the cowling for the DB601. I saw a HE-111 fly and it was a lumbering target seemed like easy pickens.

How well do you think the Gloster Meteor would have performed against the Me-262. If the Meteor would have been put in full scale production and worked the bugs out..Interesting.

Sir Frank Whittle- Father of the jet engine? Hans von Ohain?
Robert Goddard was the father of rocketry? I would say so?

I'm asking for a good argument from the Jerry's..

Bob

[MFAFF]

Bob,

Now you are asking for trouble.....

I agree to disagree.....life's too short and the planes too cool to argue.

Seen numerous Merlin engined 109s.. know as Buchons; any elegance the 109 had is seriously compromised, but when flown with a Spit if makes a very evocative picture.

Its a shame there are so few (one I believe) flying Benz engined 109s, since Black 6 was 'retired' after her second restoration to flightworthy status.

The He111 you saw, was it the CAF one? I believe that was a CASA version (again with Merlin engines). Certainly a bit slow, but then they all were of that era... the early B-25s were no rockets to say nothing of the Boston and Havoc, mind you these were much better than the RAF Hampdons, Blenheims et al...

I think the very early Meteors would have been at a disadvantage against hte Me 262. Its engines were more reliable and robust, but aerodynamicaly it was not as refined...

The Mk 2 added higher thrust so I think that would have overcome the aero issues...and being more robust in the engine department would have trumped the 262's advantages...but we'll never know for sure.

I think you'll find that Whittle was the first... his designs were runnig first, but took longer to get airborne because the RAF, in its infinite wisdom refused to se the value in the gas turbine engine.. ostrich comes to mind. Von

Goddard definitely the father of rocketry...but there is a strong argument that Van Braun was the father of rockets (the actual practical application of rocketry)...

It would appear that the Third Reich was foresighted enough to turn others' scientific work into reality.. thus leaping ahead. They combined their own with the others work to develop practical applications...

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Its a shame there are so few (one I believe) flying Benz engined 109s, since Black 6 was 'retired' after her second restoration to flightworthy status.

I think you'll find that Whittle was the first... his designs were runnig first, but took longer to get airborne because the RAF, in its infinite wisdom refused to se the value in the gas turbine engine.. ostrich comes to mind. Von

It would appear that the Third Reich was foresighted enough to turn others' scientific work into reality.. thus leaping ahead. They combined their own with the others work to develop practical applications...

Have you seen the book on the restoration of Black 6? Wonderful book and a good read for anyone interested in this sort of thing. If anyone in the states wants to read it might be talked into loaning it out as long as I can be guaranteed that I get it back.

Whittle was a genius and not recognized by the RAF until far too late. Thank God that they sent a couple of engines over to the states where they pounced on them, making copies and pushing ahead in the field of jet turbine engines. Of course then some idiot in the RAF/UK govt sold 5-6 jet engines to the Ruskies after the war was over, leaping their jet engine technology light years ahead overnight.

Did not know that you were that deep into the old airplanes. We need to get together again in London and talk airplanes!

Joe

[MFAFF]

Joe,

I am a very very very 'sad' git when it comes to planes....My colleagues here look in pity at my interest....even being interested in old Porsches ellicits less pity

Hey ho.. more fun for us tho....

Saw Black 6 numerous times... a real treat especially in comany of a Spit...a Hurricane.. a Lancaster... and assorted 'American' aircraft....

[trader220]

I'll ask a dumb question since I know little to nothing on this topic. Where does the corsair rank in all of this?