Dad: Blackwater blew up son's and wife's 'skulls'

[svandamme]

let's put it this way

how would you feel, if the governement payed a foreign mercenary company, let's say a UK based company, to operate in your hometown, fully armed, and shooting at cars driving behind them, for getting to close?

because that's what they do
anybody getting to close from them, get's shot at, i've seen video's on liveleak with them doing exactly that, car at 100 meters distance, just driving like anybody else would be driving in Iraq, they shoot at it with automatic weapons... cars ahead of them, not moving out of the way fast enough, get shot at too

would you allow that in your area or not
no if's or but's , it's their country, just like your home town is in your country

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Again, I simply wish the neocons on this board would step up and say what they really feel:

"Who gives a ***** if a few more sand niggers get killed? Kill them all, let god sort out the good from the bad. Those good old boys at Blackwater are true heros."

This neocon doesn't believe the Iraqi's story as the gospel truth. When the FBI releases the results of its investigation, only then will I form an opinion.

As it currently stands, Blackwater is amazingly good at what they are hired to do: not a single one of the people they are paid to protect (all high-value targets) has even been wounded.

[MRM]

I am as big of a neocon as you will find on this board. I was for the war regardless of whether WMD were found; there were a hundred good reasons for going in. But now that we are in it is intelectually dishonest to not have a frank assessment of the situation, so that we can improve tactics and strategy if nothing else. As was mentioned above, BW has a bad rep, even for security companies in Iraq. Their employees do not fall under the jurisdiction of American law or Iraqi law. A drunk BW employee shot the body guard of the VP of Iraq and BW's response was to fly him out of the country. He's since been fired. Whew. For a minute I thought he was going to get away with something.

Security contractors have a policy in Iraq of assuming that any vehicle they see is hostile. If the vehicle gets too close they shoot it, meaning the people inside. They do that disregarding the high risk of innocent civilian deaths because they want 0 risk to themselves and there are no legal consequences if they guess and guess wrong.

This is not how we should be fighting the war. Of course, the errors were made before we went in, and GW put off the close examination that was necessary to change tactics and strategy until things got this bad. And now we are in a bad situation hoping it's not too late to put the country back together.

I don't know what happened that day. The truth is probably somewhere in between. But I do know it is bad policy to invade a country with so few professional military that you have to rely on paid security contractors who have little oversight, who aren't integrated into the armed forces in-country, and are not in the US chain of command. And I know it is not questioning the legitimacy of our mission or being unpatriotic to point out errors in judgment, tactics and strategy when they appear. So why is there no US investigation into this incident? Why are contractors not brought under military comand and made subject to the UCMJ and the same rules of engagement as our soldiers? Are our soldiers expected to comport to a higher standard with greater risks for 1/10th of the pay of private security contractors? I just don't think that's good policy and I don't think it is returning good results on the ground.

At the very least we need to clean up all security contractors, get them integrated into the US chain of command, and get rid of the bad apples. At worst we have become what we wanted to destroy.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Rearden

As it currently stands, Blackwater is amazingly good at what they are hired to do: not a single one of the people they are paid to protect (all high-value targets) has even been wounded.

sure, suppressive, proactive firing is effective
but is it morally a fair thing to do?


hell, by the same way of thinking, you might consider dropping a MOAB on a town to make sure there are no threats in that area when you transport your vip through it?

you'de kill innocent men women and children
but your VIP would be amazingly safe, but that doesn't make it right now does it?

[911boost]

Oh damn, you saw a video of it svandamme? Well then, it must be the case. They must be shooting at EVERY car that gets to close.

Whatever.

[MRM]

Oh, and I am still for the war, not necessarily the way it's being fought.

[azasadny]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

I am not going to judge BW on this story, but how come the Iraquis don't get this worked up over the terrorists that are doing this to their people on a daily basis?

+1

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by BSiple

Oh damn, you saw a video of it svandamme? Well then, it must be the case. They must be shooting at EVERY car that gets to close.

Whatever.

even if they do it only half the time
100 yards is not a threat

your logic would dictate that it's ok to kill the occasional co-worker, as long as you don't kill all your co-workers

same difference, it's not right wether you do it all the time, sometimes, occasionally or just once

you can say whatever , all you want
but you haven't answered how you would like it if they did it in your area, where you drive your car

maybe if they did it ... just once? would you say, whatever then too?

[911boost]

Stijn, based on comments you have made in the past, I'm not going to get into a pointless pissing match with you.

If my town has a ***** load of terroists, with a singular goal of hurting other people, then yeah, this might be neccessary. But you wouldn't understand that.

Once you have even come close to being someone that is placed in harms way, continuing spewing your dribble.

[svandamme]

here's one of those video's if one cares



i don't hear any shot's fired by whoever they shot at, i fail to see any actual hostilities towards the contractors

can't say if this is Blackwater, that's unclear, i'll admit that
but you wouldn't want this in your home town, please correct me if i'm wrong on that


and as for Iraqi's not getting worked up about the insurgents
well, what can they do? they get shot at by the insurgents, they get shot out by Contractors
what do you suggest? form a picket line with signs saying "down with the insurgents"

is that what you would do ?? because i think that's just about as effective as lighting your cigarette with a Thermite reaction

what else could they do? arm themself, and start shooting at whoever is shooting at them
oh my, but what do you think would happen then if the US military or any of those contractors sees them?? do you really think they wouldn't be classified as hostile, and taken out by gunships and armored vehicles??

you tell me , what kind of worked up do you suggest for the civilians???


pointless alright, because there are few arguments you can bring to the table, that makes this the right way of operating in a foreign country...there is some form of futility when you try to defend something that ain't right

[FOG]

Dumb questions on my part.

As BW works for the Department of State, and answers to DoS, not the Department of Defense why would BW fall under the Uninformed Code of Military Justice? Why would the military answer for BW’s actions? DoS sets the ROE, not the military, for the protective details so why go to the military for answers on something that is completely outside their control?

S/F, FOG

[on-ramp]

Originally Posted by BSiple

The Iraqi's are demanding that BW be removed, thats fine, remove all the civilian contractos helping to rebuild their *****hole country as well.

Bill

so who turned it into a $hit-hole ?

[Rikao4]

Stijn, BW has been there for a while..would think the locals would have figured it out by now.
The other problem..you don't know who to trust...the guy smiles at you, and as you drive by he dials the IED.
About 3 hrs south of me..when the Blacked-out Suburbans roll..EVERYONE clears out..police included...
Rika

[Sonic dB]

Not sure I get that video, though the Elvis tune is pretty cool.
Any way we look at it, it is a messed up situation over there that has developed
because Bush rushed us in without fully examining the situation, without fully
preparing for this. That is about the only truth that we can decipher from Iraq....
Blackwater etc. are all side effects from this.

[svandamme]

Rika, fair enough, the locals should know not to get so close
but how close is to close?
these guys do operate in unmarked vehicles
how shiny are those, at any given time?
how obviously visible are they?

and regardless of this, they still have no mandate, no right to shoot first and dismiss questions later

as for the trust problem
they chose to be there in return for money , they opted in for monetary gain
the civilians however, did not get to choose, they cannot opt out, or even better
decide they would rather be in the US of A
If you sign up for this job, then in my book you can't complain if that it's dangerous
buy the ticket, take the ride.

you say, black suburbans roll, police clears out too

how messed up is that? the local police, the ones with a mandate, have to clear out because of some mercs? to me that says they(police) know they will be shot at with extreme prejudice.

If the ones that are supposed to maintain law and order run from a outlaw group
then that group is not operating within the scope of morals, and ethics
just like the insurgents aren't

[Superman]

Again, this whole Iraq War thing strikes me as pure genius. The Iraqi people have lived in a war zone now for what....five years? I can feel their love reaching out to America. Iraqi politicians probably would never stoop so low as to use the oldest political trick in the book to gain support. The "blame the other guy" or "blame the foreigner" trick. Indeed, those politicians are probably too ethical to perpetuate the unrest in order to preserve the flow of money, the unbalanced power structure and the existence of an outsider to blame. They wouldn't do that.

Nobody will be fooled. Blackwater won't be seen by Iraqis as an example of American arrogance or empirialism or subjugation.

Pure genius. It's a win-win scenario for American national security.

[K. Roman]

Are you actually trying to say this didn't happen? That there are no consequences for this type of unfortunate destruction? why did they deserve this? You are a sad person. I hope you don't have children.

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Obviously you choose to believe the story that it was unprovoked murder. As such I have to ask a simple question:

What would the motivation be for Black Water mercs to blindly murder innocent civilians?

[Rikao4]

Blacked out Suburbans belong to the Narcos, Chief of Police got sworn in on Monday,gunned few days later..some said his bodyguards helped . Local Police, half on the Narco payroll..other half is trying to get on the payroll , leaving the Narcos to play wild west.

Not right or wrong , but having served in that ashtray, I can tell you..doesn't take long to adopt..better safe, and maybe have to say sorry attitude..
than..
Mom getting a 'we regret to inform you call'.
Rika

[targa911S]

Jesus Christ just get everybody out of there and turn it all to glass. That and every other terrorist infested hellhole. Hell we nuked Hiroshima and they still sell us TV's!

[tobster1911]

Originally Posted by on-ramp

so who turned it into a $hit-hole ?

It was such a paradise before we went in.....